Timing in Modern Jive

[DavidB]

A few months ago, there was a discussion on a newsgroup (rec.arts.dance) about Modern Jive. This newsgroup is dominated by American West Coast Swing dancers. If you thing some people here take competitions, judging, technique etc too seriously, then don't bother looking at it.

This is a quote that sums up what most people on the group think about Modern Jive:

Originally posted by Mike Corbett (in rec.arts.dance, 23 April 2002)
Modern Jive/ceroc/LeRoc are kind of old news in this newsgroup. As described, many of us relate all three to swing dancing commonly referred to in the States as either Aggie Swing or Goat Roper Swing. Read that to mean a dance more alive than the dead dance, Jive but devoid of sufficient emphasis on timing or technique to be taken any more seriously as a couples dance than the Goat and Aggie versions of swing dancing.

(If you want to read the full thread, go to http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en , and search for Ceroc in the group rec.arts.dance )

Hardly anyone in the US has seen Modern Jive, and have based their view on very limited written descriptions found on the internet. For example, the main Ceroc website defines Ceroc as "an exciting, stylish modern partner dance and is primarily social." That's all!
A more detailed (!) description can be found at: http://www.swingcraze.com/ussds/othe...e_styles.html.

I didn't particularly agree with this description, and offered to try to write a short description of the timing of Modern Jive. THis is what I've come up with so far...

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Modern Jive is generally taught as a social dance. The emphasis is on enjoyment, and keeping people interested. It is more important for the dance to feel good, rather than look good.

Most people who learn modern jive have never danced before. For absolute beginners, any form of dancing is a challenge, even with the best teachers in the world. You have to learn how to
- count the music
- lead/follow
- a basic move
- footwork.

So Modern Jive has evolved into a 'simplified' form of swing. The simplification is primarily in the teaching of footwork - there isn't any. That doesn't mean you don't move your feet. Instead the emphasis is on placing your feet under the body to support it. A teacher will say 'step back away from your partner', but won't say which foot to use. In the end everybody does the same basic footwork because there is generally only one way that feels natural. (Indeed there are some teachers who will teach this footwork)

Everything that applies in ballroom, WCS etc about how to use your feet to make it look good applies in Modern Jive. It is just that it is not taught.

It does make a difference. You have significantly less to worry about when you first start learning Modern Jive, and can get to the stage of feeling comfortable that much quicker.

Several dancers have described Modern Jive as a dance without any specific timing. They usually mean that it does not just consist of 6-beat and 8-beat patterns like other popular forms of swing (eg Lindy, East Coast Swing, West Coast Swing and ballroom jive). Unfortunately several other people have interpreted this comment, together with the lack of footwork, as meaning Modern Jive has no timing at all. They say it can only be compared to very rudimentary forms of swing - from the drunken stumbling of guests at a wedding, to the brilliantly named 'goat-roper swing'.

I don't believe there is anything intrinsic in the dance that stops it being done as well as any other form of swing. (However I will be the first to admit that no-one has got anywhere close to the level of the top WCS, Lindy and Ballroom teachers and dancers.)

But as timing was specifically mentionned, I'll try to describe how I understand the timing of Modern Jive. (This is not easy. I can't just reel off what all my teachers tell me, because no-one teaches technique to this level. I've had to spend a lot of time watching people, and thinking about my own dancing. Incidentally, I've learned a lot more about Modern Jive, and my own dancing, by doing this.)

I'm going to break down the timing to 4 different areas - individual steps, musical interpretation, leading and moves.

Individual Steps
Most forms of swing dancing have a basic building block of 2 beats - a down beat (1,3,5,7) and an up beat (2,4,6,8). If you do something on the upbeat that should be done on the downbeat, you will be out of time. Modern Jive is exactly the same. In modern Jive, you make one movement for every two beats. This is physically not very much, and is why MJ suits faster music. It's sweet spot is about 130-150 bpm - at this speed making one body movement every two beats feels comfortable.
One body movement does not equate to one step - I've seen anything from 0 to 4 steps, although one or two is normal)

Musical Interpretation
However the difference in Modern Jive is that the emphasis is placed on the downbeat. For example if you are supposed to step back, you should have completed the step by the start of the down beat. (There will probably still be a transfer of weight during the down beat, but rarely any movement of the feet).
This has a lot of implications:
- It limits the range of music - a lot of music doesn't feel right to dance modern jive to. However a lot of modern music has the emphasis on the down beat, or the same emphasis on both the down and up beats.
- It makes it easy to lead a break - most breaks happen on downbeats (usually 1 or 5)
- It makes it harder to follow a lead into a break - the lady expects something to happen next.
- It feels different to other dances.

Leading
The other main implication with placing the emphasis on the downbeat, together with the speed of the music, is that the lead starts at the start of the up beat, and most the movement takes place during the up-beat.
Leading in Modern Jive is different to WCS. WCS is primarily about leverage, and changes in leverage. MJ is all about changing from compression to leverage and back again.

Moves
Traditionally there has been a lot of emphasis on teaching and learning moves. This is starting to change, with more dancers thinking about making what they know look good, but the majority of lessons and workshops will still concentrate on moves. The simplest move is the 'return' (like a change of place) and takes 4 beats. Most standard moves take in the region of 16 beats. But just to confuse people - Modern Jive teachers count the movements, not the music. Each movement takes 2 beats, so they tend to count at half speed (on the down beat). If you ever hear of a move taking 9 counts, this would translate as 18 beats.

The length of some of these moves makes musical interpretation harder. You have to think a lot further ahead, or do really simple moves.

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I'd welcome any comments, particularly if you think I'm wrong. It took me a long time to think about this, and I'm still not sure if it is correct.

David

[Franck]

Wow David, you sure havce written an essay on the subject!
I intend to respond to your analysis, but I'm going to have to concentrate a bit more...

Originally posted by DavidB
A few months ago, there was a discussion on a newsgroup (rec.arts.dance) about Modern Jive.

/SNIP/

I'd welcome any comments, particularly if you think I'm wrong. It took me a long time to think about this, and I'm still not sure if it is correct.

It might have been an idea to split each part of your post in a separate thread to invite responses on each subject from people who would otherwise feel daunted by the length and depth of your post... (let me know and I'll split it).

I admire your endeavour, I had read that thread in rec.arts.dance a while back and wished I had the time and dedication to respond with the kind of description you offer... But in the end, I was too busy (developing this forum as it turns out!).

Franck.

[DavidB]

Franck - I'd be grateful if you could split it up, and maybe start a 'Boring Technical Corner' to put it in. I doubt that most people are interested in this.

It was definitely written with some of the rec.arts.dance regulars in mind - they can talk about this sort of stuff until the cows come home. But after realising that I didn't really know what I did when I danced, I did find it interesting to do.

But please don't think about it too hard when you dance - you are supposed to be leading or following, not thinking!

David

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by DavidB
I doubt that most people are interested in this.

David

You may be wrong!

Yes jive is 4 fun. But, beginners like to be taught well. They deserve that. In order to teach, one needs to REALLY understand what is going on. This is not taught in the lessons. Well - after all, lessons are not teacher training sessions!

I used to get frustrated when taxi dancers told me "it will come with practice". It took me 6 months to get the basket to feel right, just because no one told me i) you sway back, forth and THEN 'get rid of her', and ii) you step back and twist which is only possible if the lady is on the right foot.

I think that David has thoroughly enjoyed and learned a lot from his thinking and will be a benefit to anyone he teaches. Questions like "how come jive moves are 4 5 6 7 8 etc steps long? How does this fit into the music? have been asked of me a number of times.

When a lady asks wheat foot she shold step back on - you can reply 'any' and let Darwinian science take place and she may or may not choose a good foot and perhaps it will work or not. is it not better if she is not told exactly which one to step back on but some basic rules...like she will want to turn clockwise on her right and anitclockwise on her left - so think about it!...or that in order to change foot she will perform a longer step, triple step, tap etc. I think that if people ask they deserve an answer, but if they are happy just enjoying a low-tech experience, then this is fine too. Many do not wish to analyse.

So in conclusion, jive is for those who want maximum enjoyment with little effort - it is marketted for these. Teachers or would-be teachers should personally rise above this. After all techers in real life have to go to teacher training!

Hope this helps.

Richard

[Lou]

Wow, David. An absolutely blinder of a post & pretty much spot on. I tend to agree with Richard, though, about the subject of footwork & we've covered this at length before. Whilst the vast majority of your statements apply to generic Modern Jive, it's important to distinguish that teachers in LeRoc will say which foot to step back on - CEROC, of course, differs.

If it helps at all - I tend to count as 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and for any moves that involve a step on the up-beat ( = "and").

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
Several dancers have described Modern Jive as a dance without any specific timing. They usually mean that it does not just consist of 6-beat and 8-beat patterns like other popular forms of swing (eg Lindy, East Coast Swing, West Coast Swing and ballroom jive).

[snip]
If you ever hear of a move taking 9 counts, this would translate as 18 beats.

The length of some of these moves makes musical interpretation harder. You have to think a lot further ahead, or do really simple moves.

David - don't know if this helps, but I was chatting to some people at Beach Boogie and the question about "what kind of dance has a move with 13 beats?" came up. And what we found was that in freestyle, a lot of leaders will pad these moves to a more suitable length. It does seem to be very much a Ceroc thing to have odd move lengths - most of the other teachers will try to choose the entrance and exit to the move so that it is a multiple of 8.

Dave

P.S. (speaking of WCS, those who've heard about WCS but not had a chance to see it may find the clips at http://www.dynamicpoetry.com/Links%20and%20Videos.htm of interest).

[DavidB]

I'm assuming you mean a long move, rather than one that takes an odd number of beats. I don't think there are any moves in Modern Jive that take an odd number of musical beats. The confusion occurs because jivers count their movements, not the beats. In Lindy and West Coast Swing for example, they count twice as quick as in Jive.

As far as I know, the only dance what has an odd number of beats in its moves (but is still danced to 4/4 time music) is Hustle. Virtually all the standard moves are 3 beats, and you do dance 'off time' for half the dance. However hustle music has no real emphasis on downbeats or upbeats, and so you can get away with it.

(Waltz has 3 beats, but is danced to 3/4 time music)

I agree that some Ceroc moves limit what you can do to interpret the music. A 13 count Ceroc move would take 26 beats. If you started it at the beginning of a musical phrase, you might hit the break exactly. (Breaks usually happen on either the 25th or 29th beat in the phrase in most Cerocable music.) However you have the problem of hoping your partner will react to the break after being led through a long complicated move.

A move longer than this means you dance right through the break. And you have little chance of interpreting the rest of the music if you are doing complicated moves.

If you are dancing to blues music, you have more chance to do longer moves. This is because blues has 48 beats in a phrase, compared to the 32 in chart music. So you still have chance to do a long move, do something simple afterwards, and hit the break (on the 41st or 45th beat.)

Of course not all music has breaks, and if it does they don't happen every phrase. There is nothing wrong with dancing through a break if they are there, and hitting them is only a small part of musical interpretation. But if you do want to hit a break, then you need to think in advance, and not do long complicated moves.

David