Is this a "regular partner" or "new partner" move?

[The Wizard]

Having participated in the Intermediate classes of various MJ organisations for about a year and a quarter now, the thought has struck me, on a number of times, that some of the moves taught would not be a good idea if tried on a partner I had never met before, and have just invited to dance.

If your regular partner is somewhere else in the room, and is learning the same move, so much the better, but I have come to the conclusion that some of the moves taught would either cause confusion or, at worse, physical damage, if the unsuspecting "new partner" was not aware of the move.

Practising the move(s), in the subsequent Intermediate freestyle session after the class, is about the only safe time to try things out, as the lady is already primed that something "horrendous" is about to happen. But a week later and at a different venue...??

Would it not be a good idea for teachers to flag-up the category, that this is a regular partner move or is safe to use anywhere? I know some websites do this very helpfully.

[Gadget]

I know up here that if there is a dip/seducer/hop {mini-jump} type move then it is highlighted only with practice and a partner you know. We normally get about one of these types of move in a month (average).

Anything else should be leadable with any partner, no matter what the level or familiarity (with the exclusion of 'signalled' moves; which I tend to avoid anyway.)

[Gus]

Originally posted by The Wizard
........ but I have come to the conclusion that some of the moves taught would either cause confusion or, at worse, physical damage, if the unsuspecting "new partner" was not aware of the move.

It’s not just dips and drops. any move where the elbow is bend and there is movement around has the potential for injury. Imagine doing a pretzel or Archie spin with a partner who doesn’t know what’s coming ..... mind you, I've picked up enough injuries on these moves with so called experienced dancers

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gus
It’s not just dips and drops. any move where the elbow is bend and there is movement around has the potential for injury. Imagine doing a pretzel or Archie spin with a partner who doesn’t know what’s coming ..... mind you, I've picked up enough injuries on these moves with so called experienced dancers

perhaps I'm just lucky with the quality of partner up here, but I have seldom even felt strain when doing a pretzel - I have even been known to do a broken down version with beginners (having tested the waters first and led into/through from double handed hold)
{I have trouble with the Archie spin no matter who my partner is; I just can't seem to get it into my head that I want to go that way and not this way. }

Any move led badly or with force can cause injury. To either partner. I think that practice brings clarity to the lead and reduces the confusion that is the normal cause for error/injury.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gadget
Any move led badly or with force can cause injury. To either partner. I think that practice brings clarity to the lead and reduces the confusion that is the normal cause for error/injury.

Cheers Gadget ..... I would have thought by now I possibly did know how to lead a move properly ..... or maybe I missed those days on CTA training

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by The Wizard
Would it not be a good idea for teachers to flag-up the category, that this is a regular partner move or is safe to use anywhere? I know some websites do this very helpfully.

Which websites?

I'm not sure that it is something that is easily definable, as the "safe" moves will depend on the ability levels of the dancers. Even the simplest of moves can cause injury if performed badly. OK there are plenty of moves where warnings should be given in class about things that can go wrong, but as with the Ceroc category of "Beginners moves" there is little chance of everyone agreeing on the same categorisation.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I'm not sure that it is something that is easily definable, as the "safe" moves will depend on the ability levels of the dancers. Even the simplest of moves can cause injury if performed badly.

I suggest the following as a definition of an unsafe move for a guy to lead:

... when he thinks it's the girl's inability to follow it, that makes it go wrong.

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
when he thinks it's the girl's inability to follow it, that makes it go wrong.

Sounds good to me, but it's not enough, I can be dangerous when I know I'm getting the lead wrong

Greg

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gus
Cheers Gadget ..... I would have thought by now I possibly did know how to lead a move properly ..... or maybe I missed those days on CTA training

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Sounds good to me, but it's not enough, I can be dangerous when I know I'm getting the lead wrong

But surely you're aware of the possibility in that case and back off the instant it starts to go wrong?

It's the guys that think it's the girl's fault that are likely to use force and do damage.

Chris

[Sheepman]

Sure enough, but I can't forget the fist in the face incident the first time I tried the Scissors with a regular partner
(Never had a problem with that move since though - is this tempting fate?)

Greg

[DavidB]

There is a large part of following that is a 'learned response' rather than a 'natural reaction'. For example the easiest thing to do when someone moves your hand is to let them move it, and not follow your hand with your entire body.

Many leads into moves rely on these responses. It is quite easy to lead something properly, and for the follower not to follow it simply because they don't know the response.

Of course 'learned responses' require teaching...

Originally posted by Sheepman
... the Scissors ...

Surely with your nickname this move should be called the Shears.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by DavidB
Many leads into moves rely on these responses. It is quite easy to lead something properly, and for the follower not to follow it simply because they don't know the response.

It might be that the move is led properly, given a follower that knows the correct learned response.

It doesn't follow that the move is being led properly for an individual follower. It may be that some aspect of the lead needs to be exaggerated so that she can detect it; such exaggeration will often serve to teach the correct learned response, following which the exaggeration can be lessened or removed entirely.

It's a judgement call as to where the line falls between a judicious and careful exaggeration of a lead, and the application of undue force. On the wrong side of that line, of course, the move shouldn't be led at all.

The point is, though, that for every lead that can discern the follower's reason for not following and reliably venture close to that line without crossing it, I would guess there are 50 or more, who believe there is nothing wrong with their lead, blame the lady, and exert undue force to coerce her to where he imagines she should be.

Mostly, except within my very limited sphere of competence, I assume it's my fault if it goes wrong, and seek to refine my lead. I find I improve a lot quicker if I do this... and when I do improve, it's remarkable how all the ladies get better too, at the same time.

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by DavidB
Surely with your nickname this move should be called the Shears.

Ouch! A sharp edged wit!

Originally posted by DavidB
Of course 'learned responses' require teaching...

Your explanation makes me feel a little better about the fist in the face incident, because it is one of several moves where the body doesn't follow where the hand is being lead, but I was dancing with a good dancer, and she naturally expected to follow her hand. What I couldn't do now is analyse how I've changed such leads to avoid problems. Is it a reduction in both tension or compression so that the follower has nothing to follow? Have I changed something in my body position that the lady can follow?

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
the Scissors

What is this move, btw?

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
What is this move, btw?

From a kakhanded hold (ie after double handed turn - turning the lady under clockwise) turn side on (right sides together) raise both hands over your heads and slide in so you go back to back, various options from here.

Definitely in the "execute with care" category.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
From a kakhanded hold (ie after double handed turn - turning the lady under clockwise) turn side on (right sides together) raise both hands over your heads and slide in so you go back to back, various options from here.

Definitely in the "execute with care" category.

Ah, that one - very rarely do that. Thanks. Wish I could remember what they're called...

[The Wizard]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Which websites?

You could try http://cgi.dancecrave.plus.com/welcome.php

This site lists moves which have various levels of difficulty or suggests it is a Partner move.

[spindr]

I think most classifications are fairly arbitrary, unless they are fairly coarse: drop == hard.

I think it's much much better to make sure that leaders are taught to let go, if the move goes wrong (unless a drop ). Similarly, that it's dangerous to push against joints, etc.

SpinDr.

P.S. it was a breath of fresh air to go along to a new class and get told on the very first lesson that the leader has a duty of care to lead the follower safely; and that the order of importance was: keep you partner safe, keep other dancers safe; and only then worry about keeping in time and finishing a move. Shame that it wasn't an MJ lesson, but tango

[Gadget]

Don't you then run the risk of leads becoming too light and 'wishy-washy'? Not clear enough for the followers to pick up on? If the lead isn't clear enough, dosn't that encourage ladies to lead more? Which is what can cause the injury in the first place!

{Nb: "can"}