Hip and Shoulder Spins???

[Chicklet]

Am really really having trouble with spins lead with a push (or push/pull) (usually from behind, careful ) on the hip or shoulder....(and before DH comes in yes, I have trouble with MOST spins hahaha) but these far more so than others....can anyone suggest any lawsofphysicsjim reasons why this might be and any top tips to help get me round in a semblance of smoothness??

ta
C

[Gus]

Good question. Taught a variation on a hip spin last week as part of an advanced lesson .... and a small amount of chaos ensued. Mostly the guys fault Despite the usual warnings they didn’t keep the pull at waist level and in a horizontal direction, they don’t seem to know the difference between a hip and the small of the back, and they didn’t get the ladies wound into the preparation properly. C'est la vie

[Jayne]

Hip and shoulder spins are a nightmare and IMHO it's often the guy's fault by "pulling" in the wrong direction so they send you off balance and/or by giving you too much momentum.

The only thing that I can think of to help is to practice your own spinning so you can regain control of the spin (this will help you with spins generally).

Bit of a dull answer I'm afraid...

J

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Gus
, and they didn’t get the ladies wound into the preparation properly. C'est la vie

I was hoping this might be part of the answer!! I often seem to be on the wrong foot! Which never helps!

Glad to see I'm not the only one!! Thanks for agreeing Jayne! If I mange to see it coming and *know* it's going to be a disaster I do try and do the sneaky half speed thing and come back when I'm good and ready

Was at a dance on Saturday night and the only guy it worked ok at normal speed with with was my dad

[TheTramp]

Yeah, yeah. Blame the poor guys.

We are doing our best you know....!!

Trampy

[Emma]

I have trouble with shoulder spins too...they always seem to over balance me. I'd assumed it had somethig to do with the pull/push for the spin being at the top of my body (or sumfink)...

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Emma
I'd assumed it had somethig to do with the pull/push for the spin being at the top of my body (or sumfink)...

I thought the principle was for the lady to keep her centre of gravity low. Thus the man, in leading the spin, can help by moving his hands in a downwards direction as he pulls/pushes. No?

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Stuart M
can help by moving his hands in a downwards direction as he pulls/pushes. No?

yes but what about on the dance floor ????

[DavidB]

The problem with direct leads to the body is that you don't have that amplifier/shock-absorber (her arm) to make things work. A lady will generally have a range of motion (speed, direction etc) that she feels comfortable with. When lead with her hand, then her arm will amplify a light lead, or soften a rough lead to make the move work by bringing it within her range. It can bend to keep her on balance - both while connected, and while free. It can slow down or speed up a move.

But as soon as you try a direct body lead, you lose this. It is like driving a car with no suspension - you have to look for the smoothest bit of road. A light lead can still work - just don't expect the same responsiveness. A rough lead has no chance. Hands can always move faster than the body, so you have to slow down your hand movements. The leads have to accelerate and slow down more gradually. The size of the lead is dictated by the size of the lady.

Shoulder leads are slightly more flexible than hip leads. You are closer to where the lady is normally led from, and she also has more freedom of movement. But the same ideas apply - slow smooth leads.

The leads also have to be unambiguous. A common one is to twist the lady a couple of times, then spin her. The twist lead should be done without moving the hands - you should be able to apply a bit of pressure to twist her in either direction using different parts of your hand. But when you want to spin her, prep her in the opposite direction, and then move your hands so that all the pressure is applied in one direction. This is the best indication you can give the lady that she is going to spin, and not be checked.

Finally spins have another problem - you the man has to know where the lady is and where her spinning foot is. You have to place her above this point, and then spin her on the spot. So your hands have to move in opposite directions. And you are now a lot closer to the girl - so beware her arms...

All of this is a lot easier said than done.

David

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Chicklet
yes but what about on the dance floor ????

Can we have a new Smiley just for Chicklet with the halo nearer the ankles...

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by DavidB
Can we have a new Smiley just for Chicklet with the halo nearer the ankles...

It's perfectly well positioned when I'm upside down.......

[Gus]

As usual The Oracle offers sage words ... that make the whole thing seem even more complex Good points well made ... but I was wondering where the concept of momentum comes in. To execute a hip spin from a static position seems difficult (and possibly pointless/). The way I tend to incorporate them, and by no means possibly the right way, is at the end of projecting or sling-shooting the lady in front. The trick is to get enough forward motion to give the energy to execute a fast spin, without tipping the lady over.

[spindr]

There are several reasons why hip/shoulder spins can be problematic:

1). Leaders/followers aren't so used to leading/following them.

2). Followers have less scope for recovering their balance: if the leader pushes the hand up/down, then the follower can more easily drop/lift their hand. If the leader pushes the lady's hip/shoulder up/down, then it's harder for the follower to compensate.

3). It's easy to get a smooth release when you push hands away, it can be awkward to release hands from the lady's hip, especially if liable to get caught in clothing, etc.

4). To lead a smooth hip-spin you need to be able to "drag" the lady's hip to "follow through" the rotation --- so that the lead is clearly rotational, and not just pulling the lady backwards. It is easiest to lead this by pulling back against the lady's hip-bone, as this is a good (safe) place to transfer torque -- sometimes this is easier to do than other times, especially if the leader stood up and is trying to both avoid (?) reaching around too far and any overhanging obstacles.

Also a sweaty hand/ midrift combination may not be able to generate enough "drag" -- so sometimes a jean belt tab can be a "safer" leading option here?

5). If the hip spin is a travelling one, then even more lead than normal will be required. The easiest hip spin is probably something like a spinning top where the lady spins in-place, and the man can kneel and more easily lead the hip spin using both of the lady's hips.

SpinDr.

[Daisy Chain]

Boy, do I hate these types of spin. Mine are usually completely without grace or style as I fight to stay upright. I'm relieved to hear that I'm not the only one who struggles.

My problem is that I've so nearly ended up flat on the floor so many times that I totally freeze rigid when a man attempts one. No wonder I can't do them at all any more.




Daisy

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Am really really having trouble with spins lead with ... on the hip or shoulder....can anyone suggest any lawsofphysicsjim reasons why this might be and any top tips to help get me round in a semblance of smoothness??

It's all the guy's fault (yet again).

In their defence, leading hip/shoulder spins is hard (timing, knowing where the girl's weight is, ...)

I suspect they're a bit easier over here (Australia) because footwork is standardised, so I know where to expect the girl's weight to be (I could be completely wrong, though).

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Gus
The way I tend to incorporate them, and by no means possibly the right way, is at the end of projecting or sling-shooting the lady in front. The trick is to get enough forward motion to give the energy to execute a fast spin, without tipping the lady over.

Please nooooo! Personally, I find it even harder to do a spin lead from the hips after this kind of move than from doing it from standstill (but then again I don't really have much problem with spins from standstill...) See the problem with the slingshot approach is precisely that you're giving the girl some momentum - then if the lead in the spin is just slightly off she ends up all over the place (even on the floor once - I noticed that the guy in question had contributed but made no reference to that event... I was slightly drunk at the time though, I must admit...).

Anyway, I'm rambling. Personally I prefer the spin from standing, but I'm happy to be in the minority if people disagree with me.

J

(BTW Gus I can't remember this move going wrong with you so this isn't a comment on you. )

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Jayne
(even on the floor once - I noticed that the guy in question had contributed but made no reference to that event... I was slightly drunk at the time though, I must admit...).

Perhaps it should also be mentioned that it was on a boat.


I know, I know - still my fault anyway...

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jayne
Please nooooo!

Brings back memories. A travelling shoulder spin was the first time anyone told me I was leading wrong. It has taken be another 15 years to get close to understanding what I was doing. Another few years and I might try it again.

This has to be one of the hardest leads to do. You have to change some of the lady's straight-line momentum into angular momentum so that she is prepared to turn. You then have to turn her. All this is done using a direct body lead with all its inherent problems. And all the time the lady is still moving. Not only do you have to know which foot she is on, but you may have to move yourself so that you can spin her on balance.

And the total amount of lead-and-follow instruction that many Jive dancers have had - "Semi circle with the hand and step back".

Now it can be done, and it looks good when done correctly. But so few dancers have the time, or the patience, or the chance to learn how to do it properly.

David

[Jayne]

David:

J

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Stuart M
I know, I know - still my fault anyway...

J