Jumps and Drops: Yay or Nay ?

[PretzelMeister]

Originally Posted by DavidB

~SNIP~The easiest way to impress most non-dancers is by doing something flashy. But the only way to really impress a dancer is by dancing well, and that is hard. Lifts and drops are simple in comparison.
David

Having a read through this thread, this comment is by no means the only one that gives the impression that many people out there hold the view that dips, drops and aerials, etc are only done by couples in general, and more probably blokes in particular, for the purposes of being 'flashy' or 'impressing other dancers', etc.

Direct quote from above:
"...the only way to really impress a dancer is by dancing well, and that is hard. Lifts and drops are simple in comparison."

Despite not being a good dancer, nor knowing many lifts or drops - and certainly none 100% - I agree with the statement entirely. However, there is an implicit acknowledgement in the statement that lifts and drops are ceroc moves. Therefore, is is not entirely plausible that some dancers may just possibly like to do some lifts and drops because they actually LIKE the feel of the move and enjoy doing it because THEY like it - not because they're trying to impress anyone else? And provided they're doing it safely - both for the benefit of themselves and anyone else who may be sharing the dancefloor with them - then why not?

I have never done any aerials. There are only a couple of drops/lifts that I would even attempt (Salsa Drop Stepover, 1st Move Columbian With Lunge Finish - both courtesy of Trampy's BFG Sunday workshop - thanks Trampy!, and a couple of others) - and these only with partners I know well, dance with often, have practiced the move with and more often than not who have also been taught the move by an experienced teacher - and only then with their express consent.

When I do the moves, I'm not doing them for the benefit of anyone else other my partner & I. And WE enjoy doing them.

- Is there still space for this in ceroc?

[Gus]

Originally Posted by PretzelMeister

There are only a couple of drops/lifts that I would even attempt (Salsa Drop Stepover, 1st Move Columbian With Lunge Finish ...... Is there still space for this in ceroc?

The question is ... is there room on the dancefloor?
Like a number of venues we've simplified the question. Airsteps are banned! .... if you want to do them .... do them at someone elses venue where they dont care if you knock someones block off

[LilyB]

Originally Posted by Piglet

So far I enjoy all of those moves - but I'm still pretty much a novice and trying my best to remember the signals for some of them. ....

I hope you are referring only to drops. Your partner should NOT be leading jumps (or any acrobatic/aerial move) by signals - PERIOD. That, unfortunately, does not stop certain teachers from teaching jumps/aerials by way of signals as a lead. It is still WRONG. Too many people have been injured and/or aggrieved by their partners (or other people) doing just that. So many different teachers from different organisations purport to teach acrobatic moves that it is impossible for there to be standard signals which are recognised by everybody. The same applies to normal dancing but the huge difference is that if both partners mistake a signal, the consequences with regard to the acrobatic move is that someone may get hurt (badly!) whereas in normal dancing that is of little consequence. Please do not wait until you or your partner (or someone else) gets injured before refraining from doing jumps that are led by signals.

LilyB

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by LilyB

I hope you are referring only to drops. Your partner should NOT be leading jumps (or any acrobatic/aerial move) by signals - PERIOD.

Even in competitions, we verbal every lift (except the 1st one, if we've decided "we will start with X" before hand). Might not be the most stylish option, but it's even harder to look stylish in hospital.

Whatever you do, agree it with your partner beforehand; even verbal leads can have their problems - for example, Andy/Rena teach an aerial they call a "half-windmill"...

[As well as other verbal pitfalls, such as the way Lily described a lean @ Hipsters on Tuesday. ]

Dave

[MartinHarper]

So many different teachers from different organisations purport to teach acrobatic moves that it is impossible for there to be standard signals which are recognised by everybody.

Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?

Lots of things are "possible" in an absolute sense; but in practice, it just ain't gonna happen. Every lifts teacher I know uses different terms for most of the moves, often for the most ideosyncratic reasons. We call one of our lifts the "wheel", because it's a bit like a harder move we couldn't do that the teacher called the "wheel". Now we can do the harder version, we have to call it the "big wheel" (we should maybe call it the wagon wheel, but Bryony says mentioning chocolate when she has to be lifted isn't fair...)

In real terms the only "universal" signals are leads that don't require the other person to know the move - not terribly transferable to aerials...

I think all this misses the main point anyhow - you should not do these moves with someone you haven't practiced with, so why would you need a universally recognized signal?

There is another very sensible reason for "non-universal" signals. There are literally thousands of lifts - but very few people do more than say 10 favourites. It is much more reliable to work out a simple set of leads (verbal, signals or otherwise) that only try to distinguish those 10 moves than to have to distinguish between thousands of possiblities. You want as much redundancy as possible - because the consequences of misinterpreting what was intended can be catastrophic.

Dave

[Gus]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?

I'm afraid that wont happen in this lifetime ... we can't decide what the dance is called for starters (LeRoc, CeRoc, French Jive, Modern Jive etc)! AND ... most of the lifts seem to have originated from outside MJ, e.g. Lindy and RnR.

Regretably, I cant see the dance organisations working together on anything .... we cant even agree enough to form an independant MJ dance organisation to as a counterbalance to the Ceroc Galactic Empire ..... anyone fancy setting up the "Federation of Non-Aligned MJ Clubs" ?

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Gus

Regretably, I cant see the dance organisations working together on anything .... we cant even agree enough to form an independant MJ dance organisation to as a counterbalance to the Ceroc Galactic Empire ..... anyone fancy setting up the "Federation of Non-Aligned MJ Clubs" ?

I think you misspelled "Rebel Alliance" there Gus. Sounds like a great idea for a cabaret...

Dave

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Little Monkey

So, I DO like these moves if:

The guy knows how to do them right

There's LOADS of room on the dance floor

The guy knows (= bothers to find out) that his partner is happy about doing the move

I won't snap him in two when he attempts to lift / drop me....

And obviously, being a size.... Bigger than 8 , there's a limit to what moves I can do without killing my poor partner.... But a lot of fun can still be had!

(Not So) Little Miss Monkey

and these are exactly the safety points that Ceroc teachers make prior to even some seducers. We don't do many drops up here but Lorna and Lisa constantly do the 'safety' speech so even more important to ask before putting a woman into a big drop, seducer or lift.

Our Thursday venue is pretty small and it would be stupid and very very dangerous to try any lifts or aerials there. It's bad enough some evenings with some dancers taking up a huge amount of space dancing in huge circles.

Isn't less more

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?

Sorry IMHO no way should signals be used or standard throughout MJ
My approach is - if you cant lead the move dont do it - if it is choreographed - tell your partner the name of the move or have a signal that works for you pertsonaly

Universal names - I have made up loads of moves some with names some without, even the one's with names that I gave them I cant rember what I called them
find a move you like learn it (preferably in a workshop) lead it in a safe way for you your partner and your fellow dancers, then you wont need signals.

It is bad enough certain ladies throwing themselves into drops (not sure if they can throw themselves into an aerial ) let alone having a signal for every move......imagine the senario I scratch my head and the lady immediatly drops expecting me to catch her
LL

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

I think all this misses the main point anyhow - you should not do these moves with someone you haven't practiced with, so why would you need a universally recognized signal?

.....

And for non-aerial moves, worrying about signals and names (except for the purposes of cataloguing them) is a distraction from learning to lead them.

Chris

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

why would you need a universally recognized signal (for a jump or drop)?

Personally? So I can learn it and avoid giving it. Similarly for standard names. I'm a little disturbed to find that "half windmill" is simultaneously the name for a simple beginner move and an aerial.
If you advanced types feel that signals should definately not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I'm a little disturbed to find that "half windmill" is simultaneously the name for a simple beginner move and an aerial.

But why is this disturbing?

The beginner move is leadable, and safe if led well. The aerial one shouldn't be done at all with anyone except a regular aerials partner, with whom an appropriate set of names can be worked out.

Even if both are to be danced in the same track, there is still no possibility of confusion, since the beginners move called the half-windmill needs no verbal announcement.

Chris

[Gus]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

If you advanced types feel that signals should definitely not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?

Martin, think you are missing the point ... WHO is going to lay down standard terms?? There is no single standards body ... even the biggest, Ceroc, only covers about 30% (wild guess) of the MJ dancers in the UK ... so how can you standardise? Every time I 'made up' a move would I have to submit for official sanction and have a name allocated and catalogued? (Nice idea though )

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

If you advanced types feel that signals should definately not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?

not really - I teach what I develop either from my imagination, inspiration from other moves/styles or copied from other dancers. the name I give relates to that move, but others may also be teaching something simmilar, I do not get to every MJ venue in the uk so do not know all moves being taught.

there is no universal meeting of uk teachers to share and standardise moves, teaching format, names etc.

If I teach a move at a weekender another teacher may well use the idea, perhaps immprove on the move, give it a different name and then teach it atr their venue.

Personaly I would advise you put less emphasis on the name and more on technique and execution of any move.

Your reference to half windmil - the name is usefull when teaching but b*gger all use when leading it on a social dance floor IMHO....unless you intend to instruct your partner with the name of every move you are going to lead!
LL

[LilyB]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

.... If you advanced types feel that signals should definately not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?

Perhaps you misunderstand your own words. If those 'advanced types' feel that signals should definitely not be used for jumps,... etc, why on earth would they/we want to standardise on that?

In fact, if requested, I would most definitely refuse as I fear that any attempt to 'standardise' signals for acrobatic moves will be seen by some as a sign of approval for doing them.

LilyB

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

If I teach a move at a weekender another teacher may well use the idea, perhaps immprove on the move, give it a different name and then teach it atr their venue.

But for exactly this reason, it does make sense to deprecate the use of names or signals as a way to lead a lift or drop in freestyle - preferably by explaining that there are no standard names or signals. So I'm hoping everyone is misreading what MartinHarper said, and what he means is "can't everyone standardize on NO SIGNALS for lifts and drops?".

To be honest, the bigger companies tend to be the worst offenders here - because they tend not to acknowledge the existance of other organizations, they assume they can define a signal across the organisation and there will be no problems. Hence the "tap RH on R-shoulder" signal - which seems to have about 4 different associated airsteps (as well as the "I've got a chip on my shoulder" meaning...)

Dave

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

what he means is "can't everyone standardize on NO SIGNALS for lifts and drops?"

Well, yeah that! Sorry for being unclear.

Originally Posted by Gus

Regretably, I cant see the dance organisations working together on anything

Point taken. I guess I just had the idea that, given that this is a safety issue, there might be a greater than average level of communication.

[Zebra Woman]

I love dips and drops if the floor isn't too crowded. If it's someone I don't know I like to be asked at the start of the dance, and I'll give a resounding 'Yes please!' if they look trustworthy and I have warmed up. I don't really like any 'verbal' during a dance so it's either leadable or not. Although if there's something I've done wrong, I do like a little tip and a second chance.

As a lead I don't do dips as I've had a few women launch themselves at the floor and I'm not strong enough to deal with that - who is??

Lifts I'm not so keen on.