Jumps and Drops: Yay or Nay ?

**Franck** · 12th-March-2002, 04:09 PM

A lot of discussions are about drops / dips / jumps / lifts / etc... and I was wondering what the general concensus on the Forum was.
So go on, vote. You can also post to explain your reasoning...
Personally, I am no big fan of lifts / throws, but I do like the odd dip / drop as long as they are safe...
Though I really dislike all of them when done for the sake of it rather than to fit the style of the music you are dancing to...

Franck.

Jayne · 13th-March-2002, 09:34 AM

"I am neither a man nor a woman"???

It made me laugh. I see that no-body has yet made that declaration, although I have my doubts about some people...

Only joking - I love you all!

Jayne

John S · 13th-March-2002, 09:55 AM

Quote:

"I am neither a man nor a woman"???

Can the system identify who votes for this option?

Jayne · 13th-March-2002, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by John S

Can the system identify who votes for this option?

Do you have something you'd like to tell us??

Jayne

**DavidB** · 13th-March-2002, 10:44 AM

Personally I think there is no place for lifts or drops in Social dancing. They are just far too dangerous on a normal dance floor.

They are for competitions and shows, or jam circles, or possibly empty dance floors if you are desperate to practice.

At some places in London (eg Hammersmith) you sometimes want to get off the floor before the end of the song, because you can guarantee that every man around you will throw his partner into a long, low drop. There is barely enough room for everyone to stand at the same time, let alone for half the floor to be lying down!

There is nothing seductive about putting your partner in harm's way.

David

**Franck** · 13th-March-2002, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jayne
"I am neither a man nor a woman"???

It made me laugh. I see that no-body has yet made that declaration, although I have my doubts about some people...

Jayne

Jayne!

Have you been peeping under people's kilts on Saturday?

Looking at the results so far, it seems that those of you who voted are not that keen on lifts / drops... Just one of you ladies likes to be lifted / dropped / seduced !
So come on, acrobatics fans, where are you all, come out and be counted !

Franck.

John S · 13th-March-2002, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jayne

Do you have something you'd like to tell us??

Jayne

Errrr, not in public:sorry

jiveoholic · 14th-March-2002, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidB
Personally I think there is no place for lifts or drops in Social dancing. They are just far too dangerous on a normal dance floor.
David

I think it depends on the dance floor conditions. If it is packed, then I get upset by even those doing long walks like the columbian. If it is at the start or end of the evening, and the floor more clear then I think that, with some care, they can be acceptable.

Lyke wat I af'ta do at work - do a risk assessment each time!

Richard

**Gus** · 16th-March-2002, 07:42 PM

I think there is a huge difference between lifys and drops ... though they both have the potential for disaster!

I've lost count of the number of people I've had to stop doing arials on the social dancefloor ..... I'm evene more amazed at their complete disregard for other dancers and the fact that half the time tyhey've not been taught the move properly. If the true experts at arials (i.e. Andy and Rena and Simon and Martialne) say you souldn't do them on a social dancefloor then thats good enough for me.

As for drops, they should only be dome with the ladies consent and the 'dropper' should know the drop well and be sure that the lady is unlikely to do something that will complicate things, like throwing her head back! Again ... seen loads of accidents ... most of them orignating from morons who have attended classes at a local cowboy in Stockport! Should carry a health warning.

Jane · 29th-March-2002, 11:22 AM

I really like jumps and drops and throws and seducing and, and, and, and...

However - I think they have to fit criteria ie, that it's just too inconsiderate on a crowded social dance floor - (feet flying around at head height and all that...) and that, for my safety, I'll only do these things if I know the man concerned and/or he has asked my permission beforehand. Most guys do that anyway so there's no problem there.

...but, ooh, somebody find me an empty dance floor and a capable man....

Jane

**Tiggerbabe** · 29th-March-2002, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jane
I really like jumps and drops and throws and seducing and, and, and, and...

...but, ooh, somebody find me an empty dance floor and a capable man....

Jane

I'm with you gal!!!!!!! Glad to see I'm not the only one.

filthycute · 31st-March-2002, 10:44 PM

Ok i'm gonna jump on the bandwagon......i'm 100% behind Jane and Sheena

filthycute x x

**DavidB** · 2nd-April-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gus
As for drops, they should only be dome with the ladies consent and the 'dropper' should know the drop well and be sure that the lady is unlikely to do something that will complicate things, like throwing her head back! Again ... seen loads of accidents ... most of them orignating from morons who have attended classes at a local cowboy in Stockport! Should carry a health warning.

Just because there is enough room to dance - it doesn't mean there is enough room to do drops.

I was dancing at the weekend in London, and had an interesting experience. The floor was fairly busy, but there was still plenty of room to dance. I was doing a fairly simple move (something a change of place) when I felt a strong push in the back. It was not a bump - it was a definite push. I looked round and there was a guy doing a drop right behind me. He had just pushed me out of the way so he could do the drop!

I saw the guy throughout the night. He seemed a fairly experienced dancer, but obviously saw nothing wrong with clearing his own space to dance.

Perhaps someone should tell him to go to Hammersmith...

David

jiveoholic · 2nd-April-2002, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidB

I looked round and there was a guy doing a drop right behind me. He had just pushed me out of the way so he could do the drop! I saw the guy throughout the night. He seemed a fairly experienced dancer, but obviously saw nothing wrong with clearing his own space to dance.
David

What a tactless way of doing it! A much better way is to perform the "floor sweeper" where you spin the lady round in a circle, stretched lengthways on the floor, so she knocks all the vertical feet out of the way!

Seriously now - I agree that even if there is enough room for dancing there may not be enough for air steps. Indeed Rena from jumpnjive broke her wrist when she collided with the only other couple on the dance floor!

**Graham** · 10th-April-2002, 03:58 PM

There wasn't a category I liked in the poll. I would like to post as "I am a man who would like to do drops/dips etc, but isn't good enough to risk it".

I find that in a normal class there isn't enough repetition of a drop/dip with a suitable partner (many women either don't want to or are not a good physical match for me) to make me really confident about trying it in freestyle, or even to practise with a particular victim.

I don't know if I'd want to do a whole workshop of this, but I'd like to learn a couple of good dips/seducers properly. Any ideas, Franck?

**Franck** · 11th-April-2002, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graham
There wasn't a category I liked in the poll. I would like to post as "I am a man who would like to do drops/dips etc, but isn't good enough to risk it".

I find that in a normal class there isn't enough repetition of a drop/dip with a suitable partner (many women either don't want to or are not a good physical match for me) to make me really confident about trying it in freestyle, or even to practise with a particular victim.

I don't know if I'd want to do a whole workshop of this, but I'd like to learn a couple of good dips/seducers properly. Any ideas, Franck?

Well, there are some drops / dips workshops available every so often, but (mostly because I am no big fan of them) I have not organized any.
Viktor and Lydia are doing a workshop soon (in Edinburgh), and they usually have a couple of stunning moves (seducers / drops / etc...), definitely worth looking into.

If you just want to learn one or 2 moves properly, the best way would be to ask me (or any teacher), preferably after the Intermediate class. If you tell me what move you would like to start with, I can easily spend 10 minutes making sure you get the move right and most importantly safe. Preferably on a quieter night though.
All teachers will be happy to help as long as you do not monopolize the whole of the Freestyle

Franck.

**Gus** · 16th-May-2002, 06:43 PM

Funny thing these drops ..... I've just got back from JiveSPree and seen classes where fairly advanced drops were shown to classes of around 400! The teachers were both the ideal size, small, and stocky. HOWEVER, there were many in the class who were tall, not physically well built and not in their 20's.

What I'm trying to say that a drop, especially one at speed, requires an understanding of balances, levers, use of power and balance etc. In my youth I did some martial arts and was tuaght about throws and locks. The principles are not too different to drops. The difference is that while we were strong and well trained we took our time to try these moves out. In dance I've seen totaly amatuers thinking nothing about throwing their partner around the place, putting strees on their backs, muscles and their partners nerves.

In short, drops should be taught properly by experienced teachers, and should be practised assidiously before been used in 'open combat'.

Drops can be real crowd pleasers but as an instructor I'm sick to the back teeth of dancers being dropped or knocked in to by over-enthusiastic dancers. I'm worried afetr seing what dancers try out after trying out a move for the first time. PLEASE, if you are into drops, plesae get taught by a good teacher then PRACTICE.

**DavidB** · 16th-May-2002, 07:18 PM

Well said, Gus. Nice to see you (and Franck) have a good safe attitude.

Earlier this year we were doing a new drop in a routine. After warming up, we spent several minutes in a studio just working out the entry and exit.
Then we worked on how I would support her going down, how low to lower (not 'drop'!) her, how I would be positioned holding the low point, how I would pick her up, which foot I would place her on, and how we should finish.
Then we tried without doing the drop - ie Lily just crouched down instead of the correct position. This was to work on the timing.
Then we made sure we were still stretched out, and tried the drop slowly.
We built up the speed as we were getting happy with it, and eventually (after about an hour) tried it to music.
We didn't try it in the routine until about 3 practice sessions later, when we felt comfortable enough. We were actually pleased that we had managed to do it so quickly.

The first time I saw a large drops & seducers class, I couldn't watch. The phrase 'accident waiting to happen' had never been so apt.

It is a shame, because there are some very inventive drops out there, and they can look good. But please be careful learning and doing them.

David

**Stuart M** · 17th-May-2002, 09:00 AM

Maybe one way to get dancers more comfortable with dips,seducers etc. is to teach leans more often? Not sure how many lean-type moves there are (I only know two), but it does get people more used to the higher levels of trust, coordination and spatial awareness required for dips, compared to other moves.

Maybe some teachers (not the ones I know!

) are too keen on inventing lots of fantastic variations on dips and seducers, without remembering that others need to travel the learning curve to be able to do them too!

**Franck** · 21st-May-2002, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidB
Earlier this year we were doing a new drop in a routine. After warming up, we spent several minutes in a studio just working out the entry and exit.
Then we worked on how I would support her going down, how low to lower (not 'drop'!) her, how I would be positioned holding the low point, how I would pick her up, which foot I would place her on, and how we should finish.
Then we tried without doing the drop - ie Lily just crouched down instead of the correct position. This was to work on the timing.
Then we made sure we were still stretched out, and tried the drop slowly.
We built up the speed as we were getting happy with it, and eventually (after about an hour) tried it to music.
We didn't try it in the routine until about 3 practice sessions later, when we felt comfortable enough. We were actually pleased that we had managed to do it so quickly.

Wow, now that is what I call safe practice. I wish everyone did even half of that before attempting what I consider very dangerous moves...

I like leans / seducers (up to a point), and the odd drop can be fun when warmed up and with a partner whom you know can do the move; even then, while doing a drop kick the other night, I managed to "lower" my partner onto the floor

(Note that I *did* lower her, rather than drop her).
This was particularly unfortunate as a few minutes before I was explaining how I enjoyed doing the drop kick a particular way which felt "scary" but was really quite safe :sorry Famous last words indeed...

Franck.<

View Poll Results: Drops / Dips / Lifts / etc: Yay or Nay ?
I am a man, and I love them all...	39	27.46%
I am a man, and I love seducers but hate lifts, etc...	18	12.68%
I am a man and I hate all drops / lifts	6	4.23%
I am a man, and I do not care either way	4	2.82%
I am a woman and I love being dropped / seduced / lifted...	48	33.80%
I am a woman, and I like the occasional seducer but do not like drops / lifts.	9	6.34%
I am a woman and I refuse to be dropped / lifted or seduced !	4	2.82%
I am a woman, and I do not care either way	3	2.11%
What are drops / lifts / seducers / etc???	0	0%
I am neither a man nor a woman.	11	7.75%
Voters: 142. You may not vote on this poll \| Withdraw Vote

12th-March-2002, 04:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
Franck Omnipresent Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,766 Rep Power: 10 Reputation Total: 1508	Jumps and Drops: Yay or Nay ? A lot of discussions are about drops / dips / jumps / lifts / etc... and I was wondering what the general concensus on the Forum was. So go on, vote. You can also post to explain your reasoning... Personally, I am no big fan of lifts / throws, but I do like the odd dip / drop as long as they are safe... Though I *really* dislike all of them when done for the sake of it rather than to fit the style of the music you are dancing to... Franck.

13th-March-2002, 09:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jayne Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,000 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 59	re: poll "I am neither a man nor a woman"??? It made me laugh. I see that no-body has yet made that declaration, although I have my doubts about some people... Only joking - I love you all! Jayne

13th-March-2002, 10:44 AM	#5 (permalink)
DavidB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,130 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1417	Lifts and Drops Personally I think there is no place for lifts or drops in Social dancing. They are just far too dangerous on a normal dance floor. They are for competitions and shows, or jam circles, or possibly empty dance floors if you are desperate to practice. At some places in London (eg Hammersmith) you sometimes want to get off the floor before the end of the song, because you can guarantee that every man around you will throw his partner into a long, low drop. There is barely enough room for everyone to stand at the same time, let alone for half the floor to be lying down! There is nothing seductive about putting your partner in harm's way. David

16th-March-2002, 07:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
Gus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 4,932 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 958	I think there is a huge difference between lifys and drops ... though they both have the potential for disaster! I've lost count of the number of people I've had to stop doing arials on the social dancefloor ..... I'm evene more amazed at their complete disregard for other dancers and the fact that half the time tyhey've not been taught the move properly. If the true experts at arials (i.e. Andy and Rena and Simon and Martialne) say you souldn't do them on a social dancefloor then thats good enough for me. As for drops, they should only be dome with the ladies consent and the 'dropper' should know the drop well and be sure that the lady is unlikely to do something that will complicate things, like throwing her head back! Again ... seen loads of accidents ... most of them orignating from morons who have attended classes at a local cowboy in Stockport! Should carry a health warning. __________________ Perfectly Flawed

29th-March-2002, 11:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jane Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Freiburg, Germany Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0 Reputation Total: 10	Drops: Yay or Nay? I really like jumps and drops and throws and seducing and, and, and, and... However - I think they have to fit criteria ie, that it's just too inconsiderate on a crowded social dance floor - (feet flying around at head height and all that...) and that, for my safety, I'll only do these things if I know the man concerned and/or he has asked my permission beforehand. Most guys do that anyway so there's no problem there. ...but, ooh, somebody find me an empty dance floor and a capable man.... Jane

31st-March-2002, 10:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
filthycute Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 771 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 83	Ok i'm gonna jump on the bandwagon......i'm 100% behind Jane and Sheena filthycute x x

10th-April-2002, 03:58 PM	#15 (permalink)
Graham Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Versailles Posts: 1,935 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 187	Learning drops & dips There wasn't a category I liked in the poll. I would like to post as "I am a man who would like to do drops/dips etc, but isn't good enough to risk it". I find that in a normal class there isn't enough repetition of a drop/dip with a suitable partner (many women either don't want to or are not a good physical match for me) to make me really confident about trying it in freestyle, or even to practise with a particular victim. I don't know if I'd want to do a whole workshop of this, but I'd like to learn a couple of good dips/seducers properly. Any ideas, Franck? Last edited by Graham : 11th-April-2002 at 12:18 AM.

16th-May-2002, 06:43 PM	#17 (permalink)
Gus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 4,932 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 958	Funny thing these drops ..... I've just got back from JiveSPree and seen classes where fairly advanced drops were shown to classes of around 400! The teachers were both the ideal size, small, and stocky. HOWEVER, there were many in the class who were tall, not physically well built and not in their 20's. What I'm trying to say that a drop, especially one at speed, requires an understanding of balances, levers, use of power and balance etc. In my youth I did some martial arts and was tuaght about throws and locks. The principles are not too different to drops. The difference is that while we were strong and well trained we took our time to try these moves out. In dance I've seen totaly amatuers thinking nothing about throwing their partner around the place, putting strees on their backs, muscles and their partners nerves. In short, drops should be taught properly by experienced teachers, and should be practised assidiously before been used in 'open combat'. Drops can be real crowd pleasers but as an instructor I'm sick to the back teeth of dancers being dropped or knocked in to by over-enthusiastic dancers. I'm worried afetr seing what dancers try out after trying out a move for the first time. PLEASE, if you are into drops, plesae get taught by a good teacher then PRACTICE. __________________ Perfectly Flawed

16th-May-2002, 07:18 PM	#18 (permalink)
DavidB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,130 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1417	Well said, Gus. Nice to see you (and Franck) have a good safe attitude. Earlier this year we were doing a new drop in a routine. After warming up, we spent several minutes in a studio just working out the entry and exit. Then we worked on how I would support her going down, how low to lower (not 'drop'!) her, how I would be positioned holding the low point, how I would pick her up, which foot I would place her on, and how we should finish. Then we tried without doing the drop - ie Lily just crouched down instead of the correct position. This was to work on the timing. Then we made sure we were still stretched out, and tried the drop slowly. We built up the speed as we were getting happy with it, and eventually (after about an hour) tried it to music. We didn't try it in the routine until about 3 practice sessions later, when we felt comfortable enough. We were actually pleased that we had managed to do it so quickly. The first time I saw a large drops & seducers class, I couldn't watch. The phrase 'accident waiting to happen' had never been so apt. It is a shame, because there are some very inventive drops out there, and they can look good. But please be careful learning and doing them. David

17th-May-2002, 09:00 AM	#19 (permalink)
Stuart M An Eclectic Toaster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Glasgow Posts: 1,815 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 743	More leans? Maybe one way to get dancers more comfortable with dips,seducers etc. is to teach leans more often? Not sure how many lean-type moves there are (I only know two), but it does get people more used to the higher levels of trust, coordination and spatial awareness required for dips, compared to other moves. Maybe some teachers (not the ones I know! ) are too keen on inventing lots of fantastic variations on dips and seducers, without remembering that others need to travel the learning curve to be able to do them too! __________________ Cycling Facility of the Month