Dangerous moves?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by David Franklin
If you want video, there's a clip of David & Sharon Savoy doing basically the same lift (travelling, not spinning) on their website (http://www.dancechampions.com) but the image quality is pretty appalling, and it doesn't show the entry to the lift.

There are another couple of videos at http://www.supadance.us/david-vivienne.htm (warning - they take a LONG time to download!).

Sit and lever lifts like this are fairly straight forward. A sit lift is when the hand is on the ladies bum - the entry is a simple power lift. A Lever is when the hand is on the thigh (as in the skating photo). To get into this, the man holds near the ankle with his other hand, and the lady steps into it. It is less physical effort, but technically harder.
The interesting hand hold is in the crunch lift. This is similar to a sit lift, but the supporting hand is on the ladies lower stomach (and I mean *very* lower stomach)

Skaters quite often do transitions from one lift to another - I'm guessing thats how they did this one. I've never seen skaters do a lever entry to a lift - maybe it is something to do with the boots?

Now for a more complicated lift, try this...



David

[Emma]

Now that's just *silly*

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Now for a more complicated lift, try this...

David

I take it you get this move badly wrong only once.

Actualy Dave, didn't recognise you in the photo at first ... must say the dress suits you though I fear you may have put on a few pounds since the photo.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Actualy Dave, didn't recognise you in the photo at first ... must say the dress suits you though I fear you may have put on a few pounds since the photo.

I hated that dress. It always made my bum look big

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
Skaters quite often do transitions from one lift to another - I'm guessing thats how they did this one. I've never seen skaters do a lever entry to a lift - maybe it is something to do with the boots?

I was guessing it would have been done as a transition from a two handed lasso lift, but that's just because most lifts facing that way are and it seems like the hands could be more or less in the right places.

Not sure why you don't see lever lifts - they certainly do lifts using the boots. It might be more to do with being on ice - it feels like it would be quite an unstable takeoff on ice.

Now for a more complicated lift, try this...

Sale & Pelletier did a lift very like this in their skating gala performance. I didn't think it looked that hard (relatively). It doesn't seem to require the raw power that some of the other lifts do. I'll definitely try it in the pool first though...

Dave (who's been known to regrett saying a lift "doesn't look that hard"!)

[David Franklin]

Had a nagging feeling I was forgetting something with lever lifts in skating - I think they're actually banned by the rules:

From the US FSA website:

For all Pair Skating lifts the partners may give each other assistance only through hand-to-hand, hand-to-arm, hand-to-body and hand-to-upper part of the leg (knee or higher)

Dave

[DavidB]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Sale & Pelletier did a lift very like this in their skating gala performance. I didn't think it looked that hard (relatively). It doesn't seem to require the raw power that some of the other lifts do. I'll definitely try it in the pool first though...

There is a very similar lift called a Gaynor. I first saw it in skating in a gala performance by a canadian couple several years ago (can't remember their names, but he was big!), but apparently it is quite an old lift. In a Gaynor the lady has one arm snaking around the mans arm, with the hand somewhere near his chest. It is relatively easy - the arm gives a lot of stability to the lift.

The lift in the photo is different in that Vivienne has both hands holding onto David's wrist. As far as I can remember, the entry is similar to a Gaynor, but the amount of strength and control required (for both David & Vivienne!) is a lot higher.

I wasn't aware there were so many restrictions on pairs lifts in skating. I know that Ice Dance has plenty of limitations, but I thought the pairs was like Theatre Arts in dancing - ie anything goes. It might explain why there is not as much variety in the lifts as you might hope for.

David

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
There is a very similar lift called a Gaynor. I first saw it in skating in a gala performance by a canadian couple several years ago (can't remember their names, but he was big!), but apparently it is quite an old lift. In a Gaynor the lady has one arm snaking around the mans arm, with the hand somewhere near his chest. It is relatively easy - the arm gives a lot of stability to the lift.

I've heard it called a dolphin - from the right angle the woman does make quite a dolphin-like silhoutte. I saw a skating cabaret on holiday where they did it - close up it was very eerie - the weight looks so far over that it shouldn't be possible to stay balanced.

The lift in the photo is different in that Vivienne has both hands holding onto David's wrist. As far as I can remember, the entry is similar to a Gaynor, but the amount of strength and control required (for both David & Vivienne!) is a lot higher.

Couldn't make out from the photo exactly how they were making contact - I was meaning the moves are similar visually.

I wasn't aware there were so many restrictions on pairs lifts in skating. I know that Ice Dance has plenty of limitations, but I thought the pairs was like Theatre Arts in dancing - ie anything goes. It might explain why there is not as much variety in the lifts as you might hope for.

The story goes that there was a deliberate aim to go a different route from the existing skating exhibitions, and so rules were put in specifically to stop people doing some common "spectacular" moves.

I'm not sure whether there was also a safety issue with banning moves like headbangers. I can understand banning moves where the "difficulty" consists of seeing how close you can come to killing your partner without actually doing it.

These rules are frequently broken in the exhibitions though.

There's also a ban on "inappropriate" moves now - I think one couple was doing a lift where she was held at chest height, by the waist, inverted, while doing the splits. Made for some very entertaining camera shots but wasn't seen as being dignified(!)

Dave

[DavidB]

Originally posted by David Franklin
close up it was very eerie - the weight looks so far over that it shouldn't be possible to stay balanced.

We were taught it once. It is actually remarkably well balanced - the lady's centre is directly over the man's shoulder, and the contact down the body makes it very stable. We never did it in a routine though - we couldn't figure out any way of transitioning into another lift. I think that's one reason why David & Vivienne do a differnt version.

I'm not sure whether there was also a safety issue with banning moves like headbangers. I can understand banning moves where the "difficulty" consists of seeing how close you can come to killing your partner without actually doing it. These rules are frequently broken in the exhibitions though.

We were taught 'height equals fright' - if you make a lift high enough, it looks frightening to the spectator. It doesn't necessarily have to be that frightening to do. (Of course I speak as the man - I'm sure any lady who has been lifted might have a different point of view!)
There's one skating exhibition lift I've always liked - the lady is held in a bar, with the man holding onto the thigh and the rib-cage. If he spins fast enough, he can take one arm off...

There's also a ban on "inappropriate" moves now - I think one couple was doing a lift where she was held at chest height, by the waist, inverted, while doing the splits. Made for some very entertaining camera shots but wasn't seen as being dignified(!)

There's no similar rule in dancing. I have seen moves like this done, and they got a bad reaction from the audience and the judges.

David

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
We were taught it once. It is actually remarkably well balanced - the lady's centre is directly over the man's shoulder, and the contact down the body makes it very stable. We never did it in a routine though - we couldn't figure out any way of transitioning into another lift.

When done skating (where the man is a lot less static), I think it's easier to get away with doing it as a single move.

On land, I'd have thought you could maybe transition back into a bar position, but as you've tried and I haven't...

We were taught 'height equals fright' - if you make a lift high enough, it looks frightening to the spectator. It doesn't necessarily have to be that frightening to do. (Of course I speak as the man - I'm sure any lady who has been lifted might have a different point of view!)

Headbanger is kind of the opposite - girl is swung by the foot (like throwing the hammer), and active intention seems to be to get the head as close to the ground as possible. [If girl has long hair, you have it hit the ground on each turn!].

There's one skating exhibition lift I've always liked - the lady is held in a bar, with the man holding onto the thigh and the rib-cage. If he spins fast enough, he can take one arm off...

That's another of the explicitly banned moves - even the two handed bit is banned if I recall correctly.

Dave

[dvduval]

Hi there,

I noticed that you pointed out a link on my new website that features David and Vivienne. I was just surfing and noticed the link and was quite surprised you found it already.

I've seen David and Vivenne perform twice and my life and I have to say that it's quite breathtaking. So have any of you tried any of these lifts? I used to do a little acrobatic stuff in swing when I was young (I'm 33 now-not too old).

Kind Regards,
David DuVal
www.supadance.us

[DavidB]

Originally posted by dvduval
I noticed that you pointed out a link on my new website that features David and Vivienne. I was just surfing and noticed the link and was quite surprised you found it already.

I saw your posting on rec.arts.dance

I've seen David and Vivenne perform twice and my life and I have to say that it's quite breathtaking. So have any of you tried any of these lifts? I used to do a little acrobatic stuff in swing when I was young (I'm 33 now-not too old).

We have competed against them a few times, including at Atlanta and Blackpool. ('Competed against' flatters us a bit!! We entered the same competition...)
We still occasionally do some of these lifts for shows, but we don't take it as seriously as we used to. We find it increasingly difficult to spend the time practicing, and would rather be out dancing. It is also impossible to get coaching in Theatre Arts in the UK.

33 is definitely not too old - I'm almost 36!

David