Dangerous moves?

[Gus]

OK ... quick disclaimer ... this thread is not being posted in the interests of starting another peverted conversation ... but it is a serious question to something that occaisionaly does bother me...

The problem is that the female body, though truly a wonderous sight and a joy to behold etc. etc, is rather badly designed for the purposes of some ceroc moves. The offending moves tend to be the catapult and secret move walkaround and the offending part of the woman tends to be .. ahem ... their 'chest':sorry

Plesae hear me out ... the standard concept in ceroc is that "there is always an invisible barrier between the lady and the gentleman and at no point will contact be made". Unfortunately this is not the case when doing a move like the catapult. As you bring the lady into your left handside in preparation for the spin out, the mans left arm (usualy elbow) often makes "inappropriate" contact. In fact when I use to demo with Sue Taylor many a time my left elbow would be rest in her cleveage as I would be desperately trying to make my elbow bend the wrong way to avoid contact.

I remeber during my training to teach beginners course asking Cliff how best to avoid this ... turns out he'd had the same thought ... and had no ready amswer.

SO ..the question is ...ladies ...do you even notice such contact and if so what can guys, or ladies, do to mitigate the embaressment factor?

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus

SO ..the question is ...ladies ...do you even notice such contact and if so what can guys, or ladies, do to mitigate the embaressment factor?

Hmm... funnily enough someone I was dancing with the other night got an 'innapropriate handful' (work it out). I can't remember what the move was though. It didn't bother me at all, because it was an obvious accident, fleeting, and we just carried on dancing...so I wasn't embarrassed..dunno about him though!

There is one move, the name of which I can't remember..it's a first move variation where the man spins you round with his hand on your waist once or twice in the middle of the move before finishing it normally. Sometimes men's hands come up higher than strictly necessary (!). Again, it's not a big problem if it happens by accident. I have been in a position when it's clearly not been an accident, and my response was to grab hold of his hand and move it firmly downwards to my waistline.

I think what all that means is that I don't regard the contact as innapropriate unless it's deliberate. In which case I'd either say something or do something that made it clear that I wasn't having it.

[Lou]

Speaking as a lady with ...ermmm... ample charms , it's an occupational hazzard, anyway, and bloody difficult to avoid. I can tell the difference between accidental & on-purpose!

The hardest part was if I ever danced with Sheila, who has a similar sized chest. Neckbreaks were always... ermmm.. interesting!

[SwingSwingSwing]

In Lindy Hop we have the ABG, the Accidental Boob Grab. This happens doing a lindy turn with follows who don't keep their shoulders square with the leaders.

It goes like this. The leader starts bringing the follow forwards. The leader starts to turn his frame clockwise and starts reaching for the follow's left shoulder blade fully expecting the follow to keep her shoulders square. Unfortunately, the follow keeps going straight and doesn't turn her frame and the space that the leader was expecting to be occupied by the follows back is actually occupied by her left boob.

A variation on this is the Boob Squash. In this case, the leader does get his hand on the follow's shoulder blade but the follow doesn't keep square and squashes her "ample charms" (as Lou put it!) all along the leader's right arm.

I think I've only experienced a handful of ABGs but Boob Squashes happen all the time.

Getting back to Gus' problem. One way to minimise it with a Catapult is that when you bring the follow into your left hand side, keep your left elbow in at your side and offer your hand. So when the follow takes your hand your forearm should be well below the danger zone..(unless you're dancing with a follow much smaller than yourself). Unfortunately this probably doesn't do much for the look of the move.

SwingSwingSwing

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Unfortunately this is not the case when doing a move like the catapult. As you bring the lady into your left handside in preparation for the spin out, the mans left arm (usualy elbow) often makes "inappropriate" contact.

Odd, I can't say I have ever noticed that happening. When I first read your post I had to do a double take, as to me the Catapult is one of the most innocent moves... I have never been 'aware'' of any inappropriate contact Maybe I am doing it without noticing which could be embarassing I will try and pay attention when dancing over the week-end and report back on Monday!

Franck.

[John S]

Franck, I have a complaint to make. Please can I learn the Nantwich Catapult?

You have obviously taught me how to do the catapult your way, as I really haven't been aware of any inappropriate contact (although I will take statements from witnesses at the weekend!)

The move where I'm most conscious of the danger of an ABG is the Catapult variation (don't know what it's called) where after the catapult the man does NOT offer his left hand, but goes backwards quickly under the lady's right arm and scoops her round the waist. As he has to judge without seeing her where her waist will be, the move has potential! (I do it all the time!)

I had a look on the excellent Jiveaholic website and found a move he calls the "CATAPULT BOOB" - don't know if that's the official Ceroc name. The man takes both the lady's hands in his RH, then when she is behind, the man keeps hold of both hands, rotates himself ACW, ducks under and comes up inside her arms - the move is apparently excellent for wiping the sweat from the man's brow!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
I have never been 'aware'' of any inappropriate contact

But I would imagine you don't have arms like Gus


Of course when Craig does this move, he's just being perverted.

If he didn't want to make contact, he doesn't have to pull the lady to be level with him before the spin. If he stays a few inches in front of her, and then steps back as he spins, he would have all the space he needs to lead and to prevent any possible embarrassment. I can only assume he likes rock-climbing, and feels happier with 3 points of contact...

David

[CJ]

Magnificent observation DavidB. (is that demented?)

Anyway, all said and done I am SO glad Gus asked the Q. Sometimes I have this particular difficulty doing the first move (usually during a class, with someone not danced with before regularly and, therefor, don't know dancing style) and have never felt comfortable enough to broach the subject.

Still not many practical answers, though.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lou
Speaking as a lady with ...ermmm... ample charms , it's an occupational hazzard, anyway, and bloody difficult to avoid. I can tell the difference between accidental & on-purpose!

The hardest part was if I ever danced with Sheila, who has a similar sized chest. Neckbreaks were always... ermmm.. interesting!

Already thousands of men are having totaly 'inappropraite' thoughts.:sorry

Actauly, ample charms, though a thing of obvious beauty, do bring with them cetain challenges.

The first lesson I taught at another venue I was given a rather young and not too experienced demonstrator. Believe it or not, I was so nervous about teaching the lesson that I somehow failed to fully appreciate the demo's physical characteristics .... around 5' 1" and probably size DD/E chest! (I know ... I kid you not).

The real problem came with the third move which was a recuuring comb duckspin. We'd only practiced it once before we went on stage and I must have been standing further back .... anyway, the obvious happened ... bit like John S's brow wipe ... unfortunatley I didn't get that far .... there wasn't room for my head and her 'charms' under her arm so I just bounced off! Lucklily, I managed to modify my standing position and changed the moved to a single duckspin .... even then I was making far more contact than any man should have to do whilst been watched by 80 or so bemused punters.....

The real problem was that far from being put out ... the young lady actualy made an 'inappropraite' suggestion at the end of the night ... which consiedring she was engaged to someone MUCH bigger than me was extremely easy to resist....sufficeth to say I've never been back to that club since!

[Graham]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Magnificent observation DavidB.

I agree.

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock Anyway, all said and done I am SO glad Gus asked the Q.

Personally I could have quite happily lived without it. Now I'm going to have a weekend of thinking about this (and what's a lot worse, probably quite a few partners who are thinking about it - was that accidental or deliberate? )

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Sometimes I have this particular difficulty doing the first move

I must admit, the catapult is not the move which would have sprung to mind - I think I probably perform it more as David suggests. The first move is certainly a more obvious candidate, and the other one where I've been a little bit nervous with "larger" partners is the basket, where you can easily end up using the follower's own arms as a kind of "wonderbra substitute".

I must admit that in this regard I have always assumed (correctly if Lou and Emma are representative) that ladies would not take offence at any accidental contact, and therefore I do not worry about this unduly unless it really is an unusual event involving my hands (such as the ABG described above) rather than my arms/body.

Incidentally a similar, but for me much more embarrassing, issue can arise when trying to catch a partner's hip during a spin. :sorry

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
If he didn't want to make contact, he doesn't have to pull the lady to be level with him before the spin. If he stays a few inches in front of her, and then steps back as he spins, he would have all the space he needs to lead and to prevent any possible embarrassment.

David .. I may no longer be a CTA teacher but I remain true to the old ways ..... the official way to do the catapult is to bring the lady to your side ... in fact, in freestyle, the move morks better if the lady is brought slightly in front .... Its more a question of 'ampleness of charms' and angle of the guys arms. A worse move is the secret move .. if the guy is significantly shorter the 'charms' can end up getting thwacked like a punchbag (yup ... these are all observed occurences from recent workshops and lessons).

I must stress that there is a big difference between the naturally occuring contact and deliberate groping ... only had to deal with one chap of the latter persuasion and he is now "persueing his dancing activities elsewhere".

Sometime, it has to be said its the ladies fault (not thats its ever the ladies fault because in Ceroc its ALWAYS the mans fault ... but if it was..). At Blitz Leeds last week I was doing secret move walkaround with a lass who kept on pulling her hands up at chest level ... at the break there was a slightly embarresing conversation while I explained why this was not such a good idea .... what I don't understand is why she didn't think it was a bit uncomfortable in the first place.

Still .. have seen women get their own back ... especaily out of the accordion comb crab when the lady (obviously being slightly disorienteted) has grabed too low and missed the offered hand ..

[filthycute]

Fortunately i've never had any of these problems...(none that i'm aware of anyway) Being of ...ahem..."slight" build, i've never quite managed to embarress any guys by "getting in the way"

But that didn't stop me reddening a couple of faces (including my own!) in London. Anyone going for the sarong look should always remember to be secure whilst a man is spinning you by the waist. It's not easy for guys to catch your hand when you come round to face, cause your hand is most definately not the first thing that catches his attention!! :sorry
Never quite figured out how you do that "miss the mans hand" move that was mentioned earlier.

Practice makes perfect though

filthycute MAd. x x


PS. John, Franck and any other guys getting tips from/following this thread .....I'll be keeping my eye on you!!

PPS. ooops! probably should have mentioned that i wear my sarong as a top.....just before people start getting horrible visions

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
PS. John, Franck and any other guys getting tips from/following this thread .....I'll be keeping my eye on you!!

Well, did you?
I have to say that I checked over the last few days, and not once (even when deliberate.y trying ) did my left arm come in contact with my partner and yes, I brought her to my side before the spin... Very odd, that!
I suspect Gus will have to show me his Catapult technique!

On the other hand, a few of the ladies' hands did land (inadvertently?) on my posterior ( ) bwhen doing the side to side cross slide!
I suppose accidental inappropriate contact can and will happen, but I cannot think of any of the 500+ Ceroc moves where it would happen as part of the move (ie un-avoidably)...

Franck.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
Well, did you?

yep, i did. After dancing with men of all shapes/sizes/heights, i'm pleased to say that no one accidently brushed, scuffed, grabbed or manhandled me in the slighest.

(Won't be back to any of your parties!!)

On the other hand, a few of the ladies' hands did land (inadvertently?) on my posterior ( ) when doing the side to side cross slide!
I suppose accidental inappropriate contact can and will happen, but I cannot think of any of the 500+ Ceroc moves where it would happen as part of the move (ie un-avoidably)...

Franck.

Please tell me i didn't do this! Frantically trying to remember if we did this move....erm...yup, we did
OH NO!! horrible visions
If i did, i'm so, so sorry.:sorry
If i didn't, well i'm still making a mental note to myself to keep my hands above waist level.....just incase!

filthycute x x

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
On the other hand, a few of the ladies' hands did land (inadvertently?) on my posterior ( ) Franck.

I did happen to notice you said "A FEW of the ladies hands"....

You'd think after the first couple of times you'd give up on the move.........

filthycute x x

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
I did happen to notice you said "A FEW of the ladies hands"....

You'd think after the first couple of times you'd give up on the move.........

Hey, I was not complaining about it! but in my defence, this happened during the workshop, so we had to keep practising over and over again, changing partner etc...
Nice move it was too!

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
yep, i did. After dancing with men of all shapes/sizes/heights, i'm pleased to say that no one accidently brushed, scuffed, grabbed or manhandled me in the slighest.

(Won't be back to any of your parties!!)

Well, yes, what a disappointment indeed
It could be to do with the fact that in Aberdeen, everyone is always on their best behaviour, or maybe that Lorna (Aberdeen teacher) has got the guys under her thumb!

Still, if you want some mis-behaviour, you could always ask me for a dance and I can try some of my off-topic dancing!

Franck.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
Still, if you want some mis-behaviour, you could always ask me for a dance and I can try some of my off-topic dancing!

Franck.

I'm presumming you've learnt the "Nantwich Catapault" from Gus then?

filthycute x x

[Gus]

Originally posted by filthycute


I'm presumming you've learnt the "Nantwich Catapault" from Gus then?

filthycute x x

Philistines!!:reallymad

If you want a dangerous move try the variations on the ladies straightjacket (official Ceroc move) or a double handed dominator (Aussie move) ... both definitely come into the 'Up, Close and Personal' category.

Will be honoured to show the CEROC catapult on Sat and prove my point!!!!

Anyway Filthy ... as they say, there's no feeling where there's no sense