Serial Seducers

[Gus]

OK .. plea for help here.

Last night was DJing and saw a dancer we've inherited for another club ( ) doing drops badly and with beginners. I grabbed him as sson as I could and explained the error of his ways and handed him a copy of Pete Phillips Drops rules(tm) but I get the feeling he'll continue

So ... how can we stop 'bad seducing'? So far I've tried:

• Running workshops
• Handing out ettiquette guides
• Naggging from stage
• Demonstrating simple drops in advanced lessons

But still they continue. Any suggestions or is it a battle that we just can't win. Hang on Franck have you finished with that famous Wet Haddock you used to have for slapping serial airsteppers (vintage Forum in-joke )

[DianaS]

how are you using the womens channels Gus? I found other women really useful they pointed things out and people and showing me how not to let a guy do moves.
'Cas I'm small and light, a couple tried to throw me about, and I had little control as I often didn't know what they were about to do till it was too late!

[TheTramp]

Have any teachers ever suggested to ladies that if men start doing dips and drops when they aren't welcome, or do them badly, that it's perfectly acceptable to walk off the dance floor during the track, leaving the guy on his own??

If every lady did that, then surely the guys who do this sort of thing would get the idea.

Trampy

[Gus]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Have any teachers ever suggested to ladies that if men start doing dips and drops when they aren't welcome, or do them badly, that it's perfectly acceptable to walk off the dance floor during the track, leaving the guy on his own??

Thats a standard part of the ettiquette we teach. Aditionaly the workshops show the ladies escape techniques to get out the moves ... unfortunately, as these guys seem to prey on newbies or the less confident. The number of times the ladies actualy walk away is all too few ... though I do believe a few of the Scottish ladies have used this technique to good effect

[spindr]

Two slightly extreme suggestions:

1). Do a class on seducers and "highlight" those that have bad technique -- by showing them to the rest of the class -- "what you can see that Neil is doing wrong here is..."

2). Make them dance the moves with you -- at which point you can definitely say why it's wrong as a follower.

SpinDr.

[Flash]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Have any teachers ever suggested to ladies that if men start doing dips and drops when they aren't welcome, or do them badly, that it's perfectly acceptable to walk off the dance floor during the track, leaving the guy on his own??

If every lady did that, then surely the guys who do this sort of thing would get the idea.

Trampy

I have on one occasion done this during my London days. But he was a serial sleeze as opposed to a serial seducer. He never asked me to dance again......
But do guys not hurt themselves? Backs? Pull muscles? Nevermind the damage they can cause to the girls they throw around.

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by Flash

But do guys not hurt themselves?

Maybe it's a case of no sense, no feeling.

I know it certainly hurts on the (very rare) occasions when a lady throws herself into an unlead drop (OK call it bad leading if you like) I just can't fight the instinct to save her, however damaging it may be.

Greg

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by Gus

OK .. plea for help here.


So ... how can we stop 'bad seducing'? So far I've tried:

• Running workshops
• Handing out ettiquette guides
• Naggging from stage
• Demonstrating simple drops in advanced lessons

But still they continue. Any suggestions or is it a battle that we just can't win. Hang on Franck have you finished with that famous Wet Haddock you used to have for slapping serial airsteppers (vintage Forum in-joke )

OK I've got more time to reply now, Gus..
I found that it was talking to the taxis and other more experienced dancers that was as important as having lessons and dancing with people, especially when the teachers saying one thing, but dancers are still doing it their way, sometimes to impress!

I was wondering if you have you tried asking taxis to bring the beginners back after their lesson and chat to them, commenting on what's going on on the dance floor, and in particular mentioning people who are doing dodgy stuff? It doens't have to be really obvious, but just as a conversational aside.

It is really helpful, taxis and more experienced people talked me through the guys who drop women very early on, how to avoid going into a drop if you don't want to. It was often stories of what had happened to them and the injuries it caused, but done in a way that makes you feel empowered rather than worried! Word of mouth is really effective, and women (and probably men) do talk about this kind of stuff, so it becomes part of the dance floors wisdom.

One dancer that I really respected was chatting to me and we were watching the dancing (something that I really enjoy) and she shuddered, and commented on a move that a guy had done. The conversation stays with me, as does the lesson.

Have a good weekend,
Diana

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Dianas

It was often stories of what had happened to them and the injuries it caused, but done in a way that makes you feel empowered rather than worried! Word of mouth is really effective, and women (and probably men) do talk about this kind of stuff, so it becomes part of the dance floors wisdom.

Good point. We're still in the process of agreeing exactly what is the procedure when someone sees someone dancing dangerously/badly. At some venues its the venue managers responsibiltiy, at others anyone can intervene. At another venue where I taught I gave them the full horror story treatment ... and for some this seemd to work. However, I find its the worst culprits who (for reasons that escape me) dont seem to think that the rules apply to them ... in fact I know one teacher who is a menace all on their own

At my own venue I've got no problem in banning someone if they dont want to listen to reason ... but I'd like to stop it getting that far. The comments re educating the ladies and using my crew more are very good suggetions. Thanks

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by Gus

Good point. We're still in the process of agreeing exactly what is the procedure when someone sees someone dancing dangerously/badly. At some venues its the venue managers responsibiltiy, at others anyone can intervene. At another venue where I taught I gave them the full horror story treatment ... and for some this seemd to work. However, I find its the worst culprits who (for reasons that escape me) dont seem to think that the rules apply to them ... in fact I know one teacher who is a menace all on their own

At my own venue I've got no problem in banning someone if they dont want to listen to reason ... but I'd like to stop it getting that far. The comments re educating the ladies and using my crew more are very good suggetions. Thanks

S'alright
Failing that you could always ask them to help you demo, and use them to show all the really bad ways a move should never be done

We asked our avenue owner to put on a workshop on dance ettiquette on the basis that we would all put in a fiver and nominate the top ten poeple that we wanted to attend. He didn't go for it, but took the list of names

[jivegirl100]

I think all you can do is keep repeating the message very clearly from the stage, maybe you'll eventually shame the culprits into realising you're talking about them. I also think it's great you talk to them direct. I wouldn't be comfortable walking away no matter how bad the dancing - come to think of it I never, ever comment or offer an opinion on a guy's dancing unless he asks for it (even if he's really terrible). I just don't think it's my place!

But I am the shy and retiring type after all

[jivegirl100]

Actually, I've just thought - maybe the same message apply to ladies who throw a leg in the air when doing drops? That's really bad for the guys backs, and no matter how many times I hear teachers reminding the ladies you still see those legs fly into the air...

Good drops should be more about balance than anything I guess.

Claire.

[MartinHarper]

... doing drops badly and with beginners ... how can we stop 'bad seducing'?

Teaching a stylish finish without leaning? Not teaching or doing seducers at all? Pardon my killjoy moment...

Getting beginners to wear a badge? If you're new at a club, and/or have bad face recognition, it can be difficult remembering how advanced each dancer is.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by jivegirl100

Actually, I've just thought - maybe the same message apply to ladies who throw a leg in the air when doing drops? That's really bad for the guys backs, and no matter how many times I hear teachers reminding the ladies you still see those legs fly into the air...

I taught at the Glasgow night Tuesday class a couple of weeks ago. Decided to teach a fairly easy class, with a very basic seducer in there, so I'd have plenty of time to go over all the safety points of doing the seducer.

Did emphasize to everyone at the start about only doing seducers/dips of any kind with someone that you know is happy doing them, and you can just see from stage that some people aren't listening - usually of course, the ones that most need to listen.

I also gave a talk to the ladies on the correct way to do the dip - making sure they kept both feet on the floor, taking weight on the inside leg, sliding the outside leg out along the floor, pointing out the change in the centre of gravity. I then saw a few ladies still throwing their legs into the air (this was on a very basic first move seducer - with just (supposedly a very small dip)). So, I went through it all again, directly looking at one of the ladies who was very guilty of lifting the leg. Showed about taking your own weight in a dip again. The full works. So, we did the move once more. And yes, up went the leg. She was doing the move with an experienced dancer (who I know), so I know that he wasn't throwing her back or anything like that.

Of course, later on in the night, I had to have a word with someone who was doing his usual aerials on the fairly crowded dancefloor - he wasn't at the class, so he missed the talk about doing dips/lifts etc. But I know that he's been told on at least 2 other separate occasions by Franck about doing lifts on crowded dance floors (I was talking to Franck on both occasions when he had to break off to go and remonstrate with the gentleman in question).

Trampy

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Getting beginners to wear a badge? If you're new at a club, and/or have bad face recognition, it can be difficult remembering how advanced each dancer is.

In Ceroc Central, beginners are encouraged to wear stickers in their first few weeks (I think they might still be called "First Mover" stickers). Not sure if other Ceroc franchises do this, but most beginners seem to wear them, and it makes taxi-dancing easier as you can easily see their (bright pink) stickers.

Of course, just because someone's not a beginner, it doesn't mean you can assume they're comfortable in drops or seducers. Even very advanced dancers may not want to do them.

[Daisy]

Originally Posted by Gus

Good point. We're still in the process of agreeing exactly what is the procedure when someone sees someone dancing dangerously/badly. At some venues its the venue managers responsibiltiy, at others anyone can intervene. At another venue where I taught I gave them the full horror story treatment ... and for some this seemd to work. However, I find its the worst culprits who (for reasons that escape me) dont seem to think that the rules apply to them ... in fact I know one teacher who is a menace all on their own

At my own venue I've got no problem in banning someone if they dont want to listen to reason ... but I'd like to stop it getting that far. The comments re educating the ladies and using my crew more are very good suggetions. Thanks

Try offering the guy a free workshop.....this might entice him to come along and then you have a better chance of getting through to him!

A bit like giving the naughty kid in your class a lot more one to one.....get him onside and he might even end up working with you.........as opposed to against you.

[DianaS]

Hmmm this has given me something to think about. I was at a freestyle last night very crowded and dancing with a guy who I didn't know and he tried a drop which I refused, and then he tried another later.

I've not consciously had a no drops if you don't know me policy, but I'm thinking that I may comment when asked to dance that I'm not doing drops if the dance floors very full.

Refusing him twice did feel like I was spoiling the dance, and he was a visitor to our venue, so it also felt quite inhospitable. I'm just wondering if theres a gentler way of handing this.

[Dazzle]

There are lots of things "supposed" to happen as part of dancing etiquette, but they don't. I ALWAYS ask a lady I have never danced with before if she has any injuries or if there are any moves she would rather I did not do. I used to be bewildered by the shocked looks on their faces, but not any more, when they reply "I've never been asked that before!" .

Even when I ask, and ladies say they are fine with drops, I can soon tell if they have little or no idea and quickly refrain from further attempts.

I always tell my partner that if a man doesn't ask her the above questions that she is pro-active and tells them herself, (particularly about her broken wrist at the moment! ).

Ladies, what is your preference?

[Andreas]

Often when I teach drops and leans I also tell the ladies how to walk out of them. With one person I have done such a good jo that when she is not in the mood for drops and dips I have to be extremely fast to land one

The 'walk off the floor' solution is only acceptable if the ladies explicitely asked the guy not to drop beforehand. I personally don't like 'excuses' but something along the lines of 'can we please do no drops, my back hurts' is fine, I think. Unless you ladies have the guts and tell straight out that he is dangerous.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Andreas

The 'walk off the floor' solution is only acceptable if the ladies explicitely asked the guy not to drop beforehand. I personally don't like 'excuses' but something along the lines of 'can we please do no drops, my back hurts' is fine, I think. Unless you ladies have the guts and tell straight out that he is dangerous.

Oh? So it's up to the lady to stop the guy throwing her into dips and drops, not the guy being a gentleman and asking beforehand??

Is that one difference between Ceroc in this country, and Ceroc down under, where drops and lifts are much more the norm?

Trampy