How do you judge your own ability?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Franck
~snip from 'Scots Comp 2003 - Teachers or no' ~
I think you have a point there, and we should be thinking of re-naming all the categories. However, due to either modesty or a desire to be a "big fish in a small pond", we will never avoid people who register below their abilities...

How do you know when you are no longer a beginner ?
On stage it's "If you have been dancing for 4-6 weeks". (Or when the intermediate class is starting "Men who think they are ready...please?!" ) But how do you know you are ready?

Since it is evidently 'bad form' to criticise, and complements are common place for parting dancers, how do you know you are improving ?
For me there were a few definite turning points (in chronological order);
- When a taxi dancer complemented me on my dancing with an interested comment of 'What was that?' when actually I had to make something up on the spot because I screwed up the last move so badly.
- When I had just finished one dance and before I could grab a mouthfull from my waiting drink I was asked for another dance by someone else.
- When another lead who had been dancing a lot longer than me asked me what I did with my feet on a partcular move.
- When I could catch with the wrong hand in a class and still manage to swap hands and catch for a double handed move without losing the beat or throwing my partner off (most don't actually notice now - I suppose this is just practice - I can never get my right and left straight!)
- The first time my partner grined and made that 'woo' sound after a complicated/stylish move - then you know you pulled it off.
- When a partner pleaded with me to continue dancing to the next track.

I consider myself to be an 'Intermediate' dancer, closing in on the 'advanced' status, but with a long way to go.

Anyone else have any landmarks ?

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget

complements are common place for parting dancers

Actually complements are essential for partner dancing, otherwise it would be solo dancing. However, I agree with your point that compliments are very frequent, and that it's difficult to judge your improvement on this alone.

[DavidB]

(As usual from a leader's point of view)

Newcomer - Beginner
Doing things in 'Ceroc' time

Beginner - Intermediate
Leading/following moves both in a class and freestyle
Being able to lead one move whilst thinking of the next move

Intermediate - Advanced Intermediate
Knowing more moves, and understanding how to lead them.
Realising there is more to music than a beat

Advanced
Choreography on the fly.
Making moves fit the music, even when you have never heard it before.
Letting your partner improvise
Moving your own body

The Ultimate
Leading your partner to dance in time with the music. Sorry - but no-one has got there yet.

My own personal highlight was the first time I managed to think of moves to do, instead of just repeating the class routine. I can even remember when and where - Porchester Hall, 1986.

David

[Lou]

Originally posted by DavidB
Leading your partner to dance in time with the music. Sorry - but no-one has got there yet.

Even more of a challenge is leading your partner to dance in time with the music when you're a follower. I had a weird experience at a dance on Saturday. I couldn't figure it out at the time, but it felt as if I was dancing against this guy, not with him. At the time, I put it down to the fact that the song must've had a surprisingly complicated or unclear beat - it was a dance track. But I watched him dancing with others later, and spoke to some other women - at became apparent the guy has absolutely no sense of rhythm whatsoever!

That has to be the ultimate challenge, David.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Graham
complements ~snip~ compliments

I never said I could spell ; just dance

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lou
Even more of a challenge is leading your partner to dance in time with the music when you're a follower.

I've seen it happen - the look of bewilderment on the lady's face as she wonders what on earth he is doing, and what she is supposed to do.
Virtually all men have danced out of time at some point or other. Usually it's after a complicated move, or when we're dancing to 'dance' or latin music. Most of us realise at the same time as the lady does, and we do that sloooow return as we let the music catch up. I've seen it happen to some of the best dancers around, in Jive and ballroom. But there are a few men who just run at a single speed...

The step up for a man from beginner to intermediate is difficult. But after that he doesn't really have to do anything else unless he wants to get really good. For a lady it's more a gradual learning curve, but the level she gets to is invariably a lot higher.

David

[Lou]

Originally posted by DavidB
Virtually all men have danced out of time at some point or other.

Aye - as have we ladies. But I've never come across such an extreme example.

Some other ways of measuring increased ability might be when you are able to dance at a faster speed, learn new moves quickly, able to adapt to different partners' styles, and to add your own style to moves, instead of simply executing them.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB

Virtually all men have danced out of time at some point or other. ~snip~ I've seen it happen to some of the best dancers around, in Jive and ballroom.

Glad it's not just me then !

I'll tell you what I find really weird about some of the best ladys I have danced with; their body's and hands maintain the beat of the music independantly of their feet! - If I lose the rythm when dancing with one of them, I have to concentrate to find it again

The step up for a man from beginner to intermediate is difficult. But after that he doesn't really have to do anything else unless he wants to get really good. For a lady it's more a gradual learning curve, but the level she gets to is invariably a lot higher

I disagree here - The learning curve is just as much a factor in men as women; I think that as soon as I sucesfully completed an intermediate class I was no longer a beginner - I have been learning ever since, and will continue to learn until I am in the grave.
The concept that you can stop learning and improving after you reach that platu is rediculous - the only way to not improve is to not dance.

I also don't beleve that you can compare the level of skill in leading to following - two completley different skill bases. OK they have elements in common, but they are used in different ways.

I don't want to be "really good", I just want to be able to flow to the music with any partner on the dance floor. (and to show off of course )
Being "really good" is a by-product, and one I hope (in time... Lots of time.) to be able to surpass.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
The concept that you can stop learning and improving after you reach that plateau is ridiculous

What I meant was that if you can keep time with the music, and lead a variety of steps, you have all the skills you need to be a popular leader at any venue. You don't need to learn anything else, and you can have all the fun you want. This is all that most Ceroc men want, and is one reason why it is so popular.

But you are right - if you want to get better, there is a huge amount of extra skills you can learn. There is far more than virtually any man has the time, money or ability to do. By the sound of it you understand this. "Flowing to the music" is more than most men manage, so you have already set your sights on developing into one of the better dancers around (if you are not already one)

There is a big difference between leading and following. A competent man can do his 20 moves in his one style with 20 different ladies, and have a good night. But a competent lady will dance with 20 different men, each doing their 20 moves, and with 20 different styles. That takes a lot more ability. And to cap it all, they then get told that to look really good, they need to learn how to improvise, so have to learn the leader's skill as well. Leaders definitely have the easier job.

I'll tell you what I find really weird about some of the best ladys I have danced with; their body's and hands maintain the beat of the music independantly of their feet! If I lose the rythm when dancing with one of them, I have to concentrate to find it again

Unfortunately since you are aiming to get better, you can't blame the lady for this. She is doing all the spinning, moving, and looking good. Keeping time is your job.

David

[Lou]

Originally posted by DavidB
Leaders definitely have the easier job.

Amen to that, Brother.

What has helped me a lot is that I've learnt to dance Leader too. It's far simpler to lead clearly and steadily, than to try to interpret the leads and signals given by a variety of men.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
~snip~ so you have already set your sights on developing into one of the better dancers around (if you are not already one)

Awww shucks - you're getting me all embarassed. :sorry

But a competent lady will dance with 20 different men, each doing their 20 moves, and with 20 different styles. That takes a lot more ability. ~snip~ Leaders definitely have the easier job.

If you are saying that all the ladies adapt their style to the men: nonsense. Each lady has there own style. A lead may try to force them into there own style, but that's not dancing with your partner: that's dancing against them.
If you dance with a partner that echo's your own style, it becomes much more intuative and a much better dance. The 'good' dancers come to a comprimise between there own style and that of there partners - be it lead or follow.

{slightly bias I admit, but...} The lead has to follow the movements of the music, follow the movements of their partner, decide where to move next, where to move their partner, how to show off their partner, make sure that they don't bump into anyone, and do all this with style.
And this is less of a 'job' than following the lead's hand and trying not to loose the music ?!

[Heather]

I certainly hope you are a better dancer than speller!!!!! What school did you go to!!!
Is there a spell checker on this Forum Franck? ( Can't help myself,it's the teacher in me!!!)
By the way 'there' is position ie a place
'their' shows belonging to a person or thing!!
That's the grammar lesson over for today!!

Heather

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
If you are saying that all the ladies adapt their style to the men

They have little option at times. They have to adapt their style to the man's technique (or lack of it). If the man leads big, the lady has to move, or get her arms ripped out. If he shakes his hand up and down, she still has to figure out the lead behind all that 'noise'. If he keeps hitting breaks, or expecting her to improvise, she has to do something. There are also different styles of leading. Not every man leads a move the same way, but we all expect the lady to do the same thing.

The lead has to follow the movements of the music, follow the movements of their partner, decide where to move next, where to move their partner, how to show off their partner, make sure that they don't bump into anyone, and do all this with style. And this is less of a 'job' than following the lead's hand and trying not to lose the music ?!

Absolutely. Without any doubt whatsoever.

I hope the lady does the following:
- trusts me
- provides a connection so I can lead
- follows what I lead (if I lead), even if she has no idea what I'm doing
- improvises when I don't lead (if she wants to)
- can tell the difference between the two in the quarter of a second she has
- keeps in time with the music, even when I play with the timing
- listens to and interprets the music
- spins without falling over
- stops spinning without taking me out
- moves by herself without being dragged
- figures out how to get where I'm leading her without hitting me or anyone nearby
- knows when to use her spare arm as part of the connection, and when to style it
- knows when to show off
- knows how to show off
- smiles when I make a mistake
- and do all this whilst looking good.

I just have to lead. She has to dance...

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Heather
I certainly hope you are a better dancer than speller!!!!!

Well I couldn't be much worse now, could I :sorry

Is there a spell checker on this Forum Franck?

Echo.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
Not every man leads a move the same way, but we all expect the lady to do the same thing.Absolutely. Without any doubt whatsoever.

And not all of the ladys react to a lead in exactly the same way, but they all expect it to be led the same way. Exactly.

the good lead will leave no doubt in a lady's mind as to what they should be doing, even if it's leading them into a blank for them to fill.

I hope the lady does the following:~snip~
I just have to lead. She has to dance...

I hope so too. But if you aren't dancing, just leading, then you may as well be a robot; I don't think that a lady just wants to be led around the dance floor - they want to be danced with.
You need to do all those things AND control the direction of the dance AND remember how to lead the moves AND be able to recover from mistakes on either party's hand.

To re-itterate, two different sets of skills that I don't see can be compared on a level field.

It takes a good dancer to be able to dance well with a bad one, no matter if it's a lead or a follower ~ the good lead will be clear enough that a follower can determine the moves: the good follower will be observant enough to interperate a poor lead.

I don't think I could follow I couldn't just switch off and go where led by the lead and the music: I have the utmost respect for those who can and try to make it easy(er) for them.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gadget
Since it is evidently 'bad form' to criticise, and complements are common place for parting dancers, how do you know you are improving ?

This is very hard... Especially as being a good dancer relies heavily on how much confidence you exude!
The best way to know if you are improving, is first to keep trying! One of the most common pitfall, is to think that you are there. The other way, is to keep challenging yourself. Go on a Style / Intermediate workshop and see how you handle it. Is it easy for you to pick up the moves / style points and to then translate them into your freestyle?
Are you able to radically change your style depending on the music, or your partner?

The other option, is to ask for a frank assessment from a few of your regular partners (preferably ones you consider