Ladies taking the initiative - Page 10

CeeCee · 9th-January-2007, 11:05 AM

Clearly some leaders welcome the lady adorning and embellishing in jive and clearly some leaders don't.

Some leaders allow it and some followers just aren't keen.

I try to just go with the flow. If I know a leader doesn't like it, I won't do it. Would I make him coffee when he clearly requested tea?

**Lynn** · 9th-January-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CeeCee

I try to just go with the flow. If I know a leader doesn't like it, I won't do it. Would I make him coffee when he clearly requested tea?

Back to the whole thing of dancing 'with' your partner, and not 'at' them.

And therefore you decide that its more important for you to be in tune with your partner, than the music. You follow your partner, sometimes that might mean restricting your desire to respond to the music if they don't lead you or like you to do that.

Its a bonus when you get to do both.

MartinHarper · 9th-January-2007, 01:19 PM

One way to think of embellishments is to look at the different types they can take:

* Disconnected: embellishments that, if I shut my eyes, I wouldn't be able to feel. Eg, spare leg, spare arms, etc.
* Connected: embellishments that I can feel, but I don't need to pay attention to. Eg, a ronde in a first move twist out.
* Requests: embellishments that ask for some response from me, so I should pay attention, but won't end in disaster if I don't respond quickly enough. Eg: asking for some counterbalance in open position, asking to extend a turn by a couple of beats.
* Demands: embellishments that demand or force a response from me, lest the dance break down. Eg: backleading a drop, breaking connection to do a shine, First Move Resistor, The Tart.

For me, I prefer to see the first two types, and try to dance in a way that makes them easy. Requests can be good, though I'm not always quick enough to react. Demands are ok in moderation, provided that they work and don't scare me.

jivecat · 9th-January-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn

Back to the whole thing of dancing 'with' your partner, and not 'at' them.

It seems to me that some leaders love being "danced at". I'm still not 100% comfortable with it, though.

**Lynn** · 9th-January-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jivecat

It seems to me that some leaders love being "danced at". I'm still not 100% comfortable with it, though.

Esp not when its 'on demand' - often at points where I'm struggling to find something interesting enough in the music to respond to. I can feel very self conscious. (Different with a leader I know, to a track I know and he knows I like to 'play' with.)

jim · 11th-June-2007, 07:37 PM

Hi new to the forum, I just wanted to post on this because it's been bugging me for so long.

I found this FAQ: Lead and Follow, Table of contents

8.5 Active following

" In social ballroom dancing where the female is supposed to be literally unaware of what will come next, "back leading" is a clear violation of the intent as well as the spirit of the encounter. Backleading is an attitude problem; when a follower backleads, she's saying that she neither respects nor trusts the leader's ability to lead, to dance or even to select figures".

I started ballroom dancing at exactly the same time as i took up MJ. And I can tell you this is exactly what ladies taking the inative feels like to a ballroom dancer.

I hadn't realised that.....

"However, in Swing dancing, things aren't quite so chauvinistic! :-) Swing dancing is an improvisational environment and that makes it interesting and exciting to both partners. The best followers will "take over" and surprise the leader with variations during passes, etc., and also at the end of most any figure."

I wish someone had told me there where two different ways to lead & follow!

MartinHarper · 11th-June-2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

However, in Swing dancing, things aren't quite so chauvinistic! :-) Swing dancing is an improvisational environment and that makes it interesting and exciting to both partners. The best followers will "take over" and surprise the leader with variations during passes, etc., and also at the end of most any figure."

It's worth emphasising that "Swing" this quote is referring solely to "West Coast Swing", rather than to swing dances in general. West Coast is a particular form of swing that is set up to allow followers a great deal of control over both the large-scale flow of the dance (as well as many of the small-scale details). It's the only dance I know that works in this way.

Modern Jive is not West Coast, or really a swing dance, and is not set up to allow this type of large-scale control by followers.

**Gadget** · 12th-June-2007, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

{Modern Jive} is not set up to allow this type of large-scale control by followers.

Dosn't stop some of them though

cms · 14th-June-2007, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadget

Dosn't stop some of them though

and would you want us to stop taking the lead all the team? some men enjoy that kind of thing!!!

C xx

**David Bailey** · 14th-June-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cms

and would you want us to stop taking the lead all the team? some men enjoy that kind of thing!!!

Yes, they're called "poor leaders"

**Double Trouble** · 14th-June-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Yes, they're called "poor leaders"

DJ, you are the only lead who doesn't let me play. It's quite refreshing actually. I like it when you take control of me and don't take any nonsense.

**David Bailey** · 14th-June-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Trouble

DJ, you are the only lead who doesn't let me play. It's quite refreshing actually. I like it when you take control of me and don't take any nonsense.

If only such control extended to your posts...

Astro · 14th-June-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

* Demands: embellishments that demand or force a response from me, lest the dance break down. Eg: backleading a drop,

I would never do that.

Quote:

breaking connection to do a shine

I love shines, only a handful of blokes lead them.

Quote:

First Move Resistor, The Tart.

Please explain the First Move Resistor and especially The Tart - sounds interesting.

Quote:

Demands are ok in moderation, provided that they work and don't scare me.

MartinHarper · 14th-June-2007, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cms

Would you want us to stop taking the lead all the time?

Well, ideally, I'd want followers who do want that much control over large-scale aspects of the dance to either learn to lead, or to learn to follow West Coast. Long-term, they'll be happier that way. Fortunately, few MJ followers sabotage more than a couple of times a dance, so it's not really a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astro

Please explain the First Move Resistor and especially The Tart - sounds interesting.

(as I recall, your names may vary, etc)
Resistor moves are any move where the leader attempts to lead a turn, and instead the follower resists that lead and instead turns the leader. So, First Move Resistor, Figure of Eight Resistor, etc.
The Tart is any of a number of sabotage variations that has the follower pinning the lead and rubbing herself up and down his leg. It could come off an Octopus or a Man's Spin, for example. According to the web, Nicky and Robert teach one on one of their Close Moves DVDs.

cms · 15th-June-2007, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Well, ideally, I'd want followers who do want that much control over large-scale aspects of the dance to either learn to lead, or to learn to follow West Coast. Long-term, they'll be happier that way. Fortunately, few MJ followers sabotage more than a couple of times a dance, so it's not really a problem.
.

i do agree with you when dancing with new partners or people i dont know well, and i would never take over the majority of the dance - just play occasionally. there are many people though who like the challenge and if sabotage is not done just for the sake of it and actually enhances the dance then i think its a good thing. playing (and styling) can be just as much fun without interrupting the lead so in other that is what i focus on.

C x

**David Bailey** · 15th-June-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astro

I love shines, only a handful of blokes lead them.

How can anyone lead a shine? Provide space for it, certainly, but surely by definition it's not led? Or am I missing something?

Astro · 15th-June-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

(as I recall, your names may vary, etc)
Resistor moves are any move where the leader attempts to lead a turn, and instead the follower resists that lead and instead turns the leader. So, First Move Resistor, Figure of Eight Resistor, etc.
The Tart is any of a number of sabotage variations that has the follower pinning the lead and rubbing herself up and down his leg. It could come off an Octopus or a Man's Spin, for example. According to the web, Nicky and Robert teach one on one of their Close Moves DVDs.

I'm a good girl I am. Are you trying to corrupt me

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

How can anyone lead a shine? Provide space for it, certainly, but surely by definition it's not led? Or am I missing something?

No, you are not missing anything. However the lead does have to indicate that the follow can do her own steps, he can't just say "Right, we'll do shines now." Also some leads expect the follow to duplicate his shines, which is definately leading.

View Poll Results: Improvising - yes or no?
I'm a man, and I like the lady improvising whenever she wants to	50	35.46%
I'm a man, and I like the lady improvising whenever I let her	16	11.35%
I'm a man, and I prefer the lady just to follow	3	2.13%
I'm a man, and I don't case either way	3	2.13%
I'm a lady, and I will take any opportunity to improvise	50	35.46%
I'm a lady, and I will improvise if the man expects me to	9	6.38%
I'm a lady, and I don't like improvising	4	2.84%
I'm a lady, and I don't case either way	4	2.84%
What's improvising?	2	1.42%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll \| Withdraw Vote

9th-January-2007, 11:05 AM	#181 (permalink)
CeeCee Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 323 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 1339	Re: Ladies taking the initiative Clearly some leaders welcome the lady adorning and embellishing in jive and clearly some leaders don't. Some leaders allow it and some followers just aren't keen. I try to just go with the flow. If I know a leader doesn't like it, I won't do it. Would I make him coffee when he clearly requested tea?

9th-January-2007, 01:19 PM	#183 (permalink)
MartinHarper Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Worcester, UK Posts: 4,115 Status: No Status Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 1861	Re: Ladies taking the initiative One way to think of embellishments is to look at the different types they can take: * Disconnected: embellishments that, if I shut my eyes, I wouldn't be able to feel. Eg, spare leg, spare arms, etc. * Connected: embellishments that I can feel, but I don't need to pay attention to. Eg, a ronde in a first move twist out. * Requests: embellishments that ask for some response from me, so I should pay attention, but won't end in disaster if I don't respond quickly enough. Eg: asking for some counterbalance in open position, asking to extend a turn by a couple of beats. * Demands: embellishments that demand or force a response from me, lest the dance break down. Eg: backleading a drop, breaking connection to do a shine, First Move Resistor, The Tart. For me, I prefer to see the first two types, and try to dance in a way that makes them easy. Requests can be good, though I'm not always quick enough to react. Demands are ok in moderation, provided that they work and don't scare me.

11th-June-2007, 07:37 PM	#186 (permalink)
jim Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 10 Status: No Status Rep Power: 1 Rep.: 12	Re: Ladies taking the initiative Hi new to the forum, I just wanted to post on this because it's been bugging me for so long. I found this FAQ: Lead and Follow, Table of contents 8.5 Active following " In social ballroom dancing where the female is supposed to be literally unaware of what will come next, "back leading" is a clear violation of the intent as well as the spirit of the encounter. Backleading is an attitude problem; when a follower backleads, she's saying that she neither respects nor trusts the leader's ability to lead, to dance or even to select figures". I started ballroom dancing at exactly the same time as i took up MJ. And I can tell you this is exactly what ladies taking the inative feels like to a ballroom dancer. I hadn't realised that..... "However, in Swing dancing, things aren't quite so chauvinistic! :-) Swing dancing is an improvisational environment and that makes it interesting and exciting to both partners. The best followers will "take over" and surprise the leader with variations during passes, etc., and also at the end of most any figure." I wish someone had told me there where two different ways to lead & follow!

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