Ladies taking the initiative

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Emma
I'd like there to be an option on this poll for:

'I am a lady, would love to improvise but am not quite sure how to and by the time the I've realised there's a moment for it the opportunity has passed and then I feel like a wally cos I missed it...'

Please....

Oooo been there so many times Would love to improvise more but getting the timing right is still difficult. However I believe it is very important for the woman to be able to express herself and add "her thing" to the dance, makes it more interesting, if not a bit confusing at times, for everyone.

lots said on this topic, very interesting and informative and nice to know I'm not alone

Cheers

Sandy

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Sandy
However I believe it is very important for the woman to be able to express herself and add "her thing" to the dance, makes it more interesting...

Preach on sister

All for this and Snady think you're getting pretty good at expressing yourself in your dancing

[Franck]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Can someone tell me what the women doing her own thing would involve? I have the unpopular opinion (on the poll) that the woman should follow the moves that are led by the man.

As you say, it is hard to talk about something, that is not even visual, but felt...

Ladies taking the initiative is really a more 'advanced' feature of dancing, as it involves a degree of skill on both sides. The man needs to be flexible and able to read / interpret his partners movement, and in particular assess the state of her momentum, and of course, the ladies need to have a grasp of the rhythm, musical phrase, as well as being able to do something 'interesting' with the extra freedom.

Ultimately, it is a matter of trust between the 2 dancers, if the man trusts his partner to 'improve' their dance, he will be happier letting her do her own thing, especially if she feeds back and inspires his own dancing...

Beginners doing their own thing is usually either the man not leading enough, or the lady not (yet) being able to follow, both usually improve with time and practise, and my views is that men should be more tolerant and smile when mistakes happen, to help boost their partner's confidence...

Franck.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Can someone tell me what the women doing her own thing would involve? I have the unpopular opinion (on the poll) that the woman should follow the moves that are led by the man.

You are perfectly correct - the lady should follow the moves that the man leads. Taking the initiative is when the man isn't leading.

In the dance styles where this first became popular (notably West Coast Swing) the man doesn't have to lead on every single beat of every step. The ladies took advantage of this - they could basically do whatever they wanted when the man wasn't leading, as long as they were ready to follow when he started again. They called it a 'window of opportunity' to put in their own ideas, etc.

The men liked this, because the ladies looked good, and the men got some of the credit (even though they didn't do anything.) A lot of them started to give the ladies more chance to play - making the 'window of opportunity' bigger. They figured out when and how they could do this, and now it is an integral part of the dance.

It is harder to do in modern jive, because in most moves there should be a continuous lead. As a result there are very few natural chances for the ladies. Instead they generally have to rely on the men giving them the chance to do their own thing. There are a few exceptions - ladies who can and will improvise given any opportunity. They will take the smallest 'window' and turn it into a conservatory. (They should be called double-glazing salesmen).

And there are some ladies who just don't like it. I heard one lady say that she wants to dance with men, and not by herself whilst holding onto his hand. So don't expect every lady to leap at the opportunity.

David

[Wendy]

Originally posted by DavidB
There are a few exceptions - ladies who can and will improvise given any opportunity. They will take the smallest 'window' and turn it into a conservatory. (They should be called double-glazing salesmen).

I like the "window of opportunity" idea but don't want to turn into a double-glazing "salesman" even although I'm also trying to learn how to lead .....

Wxx

PS What do I have to do to guarantee a dance with you in London ??? You come highly recommended...

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Franck
As you say, it is hard to talk about something, that is not even visual, but felt...

Franck.

Are we back on that topic raised by Horsey Dude earlier???

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Sandy
Are we back on that topic raised by Horsey Dude earlier???

You are such a bad influence on me Sandy. Funny how Horsey Dude brought it up isn't it ???

Wx

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock

All for this and Snady think you're getting pretty good at expressing yourself in your dancing

Cheers Dave, lots of good leading and mind reading!

Sandy

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Wendy
You are such a bad influence on me Sandy. Funny how Horsey Dude brought it up isn't it ???

Wx

And up and up and............

I don't know Wendy, it takes one to know one!

I'm a bit worried about Dave's comment about expressing myself though! Franck will be putting a warning on this soon!

[Paul F]

Hi.
Just want to say, on the point of ladies taking the initiative, I went to Milton Keynes last night (fri 12th Apr) and Kevin, who was teaching that night, taught a fun class consisting of 'sabotage' moves.

Although this sounds like a terrorism school it was actually an absolutely brilliant twist for dancing. Firstly, i am a fan of the lady taking the initiative. Anything that adds to the basic move, to move, to move ritual that goes on 90% of the time. Adding a bit , or a lot, of style can take dancing to that next level i think.

An example last night was a lady spin. The guy would hold right to right as normal, step in preparing the lady as she has turned 90degrees ACW. As he spun her she would 'grab' his arm (blocking) and instead, spin HIM 360 degrees clockwise. This is a simple example but it was amazingly effective. A lot of the guys didnt appreciate this much but they are the kind of people who employ no style and just go 'through the paces'.
I have seen workshops on 'sabotage and counter-sabotage' techniques without ever appreciating what they were. I have rarely , if ever, seen this done in freestyle which in my opinion is such a shame.
To include varying aspects in your dancing surely makes for a more involved and enjoyable dance.................doesn't it ????

[Lou]

Originally posted by Paul F
'sabotage'

*lol* I can't believe a man would post & suggest this!! I know a couple of sabotage moves for First Move & Fig of 8, but it's very rare to find a man who appreciates them being thrown in! I'd like to remember your Lady Spin one & try it out sometime... Should the lady spin the man instead of being spun herself?

[pxf19192]

Yes, thats right. After the lady spin preperation the guy goes to spin her but as she faces (possibly slightly turning past the initial front facing position) she stops her spin by blocking with her left arm on the arm the guy used to spin her, she grabs the guys arm that he was spinning her with, and spins him ACW 360 degrees. ....then possibly returns the guy!!!!



why do guys hate doing these moves ??? i really dont understand why. surely anything 'unconventional' is good isnt it??

Variety the spice of life and everything

[pxf19192]

sorry. Posted that last post in work so i had a different user name.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by pxf19192
After the lady spin preperation the guy goes to spin her but as she faces (possibly slightly turning past the initial front facing position) she stops her spin by blocking with her left arm on the arm the guy used to spin her, she grabs the guys arm that he was spinning her with, and spins him ACW 360 degrees. ....then possibly returns the guy!!!!

Wow !!! I can't imagine trying that !!! on the other hand I CAN !!!!

I can think of so many guys who would be outraged !!!!

Wxxx

[DavidB]

Originally posted by pxf19192
why do guys hate doing these moves ??? i really dont understand why. surely anything 'unconventional' is good isnt it??

There is a time and a place for 'sabotage' moves, or 'hijacking' the lead.

Hijacking is just a type of improvisation, so the same ideas apply. The lady needs a 'window of opportunity' to stop following, lead the move, and then give the man a chance to react and follow.

They generally only work with the better men - the same ones who are probably into musical interpretation etc. So don't try sabotaging his moves coming up to a break or a highlight. Instead pick the bits of music that are harder for the men to do something interesting in - like instrumental sections.

Don't expect us men to get it first time. We are just not expecting it. With the exception of Lily, I think I've been on the receiving end of a sabotage move about 3 times in the last 10 years.

Don't do them too often. They work as a variation, not as the norm.

And don't expect men to be good at spinning! Especially me.

David

[TheTramp]

And don't expect men to be good at spinning! Especially me.

And me.

But by all means try

Steve

[Lou]

*lol* I don't make a habit of it, honest, although the Fig of 8 Resist actually came up in John Eastman's class last night.

Actually, I find them very hard to throw in, as my mindset tends to be on following, and by the time I realise I could've done something else, the moment's been and gone. Particularly if I was following Steve or David - when I really needed to concentrate!

[MartinHarper]

I was wondering if there should be a Ceroc "Classic Intermediate" move that had a sabotage element. Sabotage moves are occasionally taught in class, but they're rarely repeated, so it seems hard for women to practice them. Something simple, perhaps.

[RogerR]

Sabotage is for girls to get out of moves they won't do. They usually has very negative feel, -"you led that but I wont do it"

Ladies taking the initiative is very different, and very positive, " You led that, and I'll reply with...."

If someone repeatedly sabotages my lead I dont want to dance with them again. If someone takes the initiative and replies to a move with a move in reply then the physical conversation is inspiring, and I'd like another dance please.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Lou

*lol* I don't make a habit of it, honest, although the Fig of 8 Resist actually came up in John Eastman's class last night.

Actually, I find them very hard to throw in, as my mindset tends to be on following, and by the time I realise I could've done something else, the moment's been and gone. Particularly if I was following Steve or David - when I really needed to concentrate!

Bless you for finding this, Martin! It was true at the time.