Ladies taking the initiative

[Cruella]

I love to sabotage, but only with certain men (ones with a sense of humour). It's great to make them laugh but the look of shock can also be amusing. I won't sabotage with someone i don't know because some men don't take too kindly to it.

[TiggsTours]

This is difficult, I wanted to answer that I will take any opportunity to improvise, and generally that's true, but there are some guys who just can't deal with that, and if I'm dancing with them, then I don't. I have to admit though, I don't tend to dance with guys who don't like me improvising that often, as its just no fun!

Sorry guys!

[jivecat]

I remember seeing this thread ages ago when it first came up. At that time I would have voted for "what's improvisation?". Thanks to dancing with numerous fantastic leaders at weekenders and elsewhere I gradually began to get a glimmer of what it meant and to acquire the confidence to try some stuff out. I have long way to go and still would never be able to attempt any sabotage but it seems to me now that it's one of the things that ladies can do to keep the dance fresh and interesting.

However, I don't like it when the leader tries to force me to do it. It has to flow naturally from the music and the opportunity. If the music doesn't suggest anything to me I'm completely at a loss, and quite cross if I've just received an order to do some "ladies' stuff."

I agree that it would be good to have improvisation taught as a feature of classes, but I think the level of musical awareness is often very low and this needs to be worked on as well. Like Wendy, I find it hugely frustrating to have the features of the music completely ignored and find this quite often in leaders who are otherwise technically very competent.

I also think improvisation needs to be worked on alone as a personal response to the music before fitting it into a partner dance.

[Daisy Chain]

I took the initiative the other night and hit a very perfect and obvious break. I hardly had time to arrange my face into a very smug expression when my partner looked aghast and asked what was wrong. "Have you lost the beat?" he said.

So, for the rest of the dance, we bounced through all the obvious breaks whilst those around us played statues.


Daisy

(A Peeved Little Flower)

[Trish]

Originally Posted by Daisy Chain

I took the initiative the other night and hit a very perfect and obvious break. I hardly had time to arrange my face into a very smug expression when my partner looked aghast and asked what was wrong. "Have you lost the beat?" he said.

So, for the rest of the dance, we bounced through all the obvious breaks whilst those around us played statues.


Daisy

(A Peeved Little Flower)

I'm not surprised you're peeved - if someone said that to me when I'd responded to the music I'd have to say something to them along the lines of "what tune are you listening to then? Didn't you hear that break?" But then I'm a bit too forthright for my own good sometimes!

I've got into a habit with some guys of stopping them with a downward lead when there is a break in the music which I know they are going to ignore (for example when they've already ignored it twice in this song) and then doing a short bit of wiggling or whatever. I tend to find that as long as the guy has a sense of humour and you smile nicely at him they're ok with this. At least it is a clear signal that something different is about to happen. I will also do something fairly obvious like leading myself into a return to signal that I've finished what I'm doing. I've not had any complaints so far, but it'd be interesting to see what the forum men think of this - go on - flame me!

Like Jivecat though, I hate it when they try to make you improvise and always forget any inspiration I may have had. Generally I find that guys that do this are often guys that have been to some workshop on the subject but don't really listen to the music - so they'll do it in the middle of some really boring song and not in a song with breaks - certainly not on the breaks or interesting bits in the music! I really do like improvising in a Blues room though - I only wish I had a bit wider repertoire of interesting things to do!

[wicked blue]

Myself and Just Wiggle both like to think of it as playing and certainly there are some guys out there that are really good at letting the woman play. However there are one's out there where there is no opportunity to be able to do this as they're so focused on what moves their doing that they bang them out one after another without any pausing!!

[jockey]

In one sense all freestyle dancing is improvised in the sense that it is not choreographed...I for one dont know what exactly Im going to do although I know what sorts of things I might do. Handing the initiative over doesnt mean that the lady gets the lead (at least when I do it, because I cant follow..)but it does mean she can make some choices..about what she does whilst Im prettywell stationary e. g., ochos plus that leg rubbing thingy from Tango, or the darting limb through my legs () and another e.g., is from a backhander the man kneels and "encourages" body ripples (at eye level) or sexy circling. Those are my favourite "invitations to treat" (borrowing from the Law of Contract, there) but, now I think about it, Im not offering a great deal of scope as the former situation is governed by the double "ochos handhold" to which you can only really do ochos and the second is governed by the fact that im kneeling which, short of letting go the handhold, and doing a bit of solo, means she can only do a small range of movements.
So, in my dancing, I conclude, I offer limited initiative on my terms; sounds mean but this is as it should be,isnt it?:

[jockey]

Originally Posted by Cruella

I love to sabotage, but only with certain men (ones with a sense of humour). It's great to make them laugh but the look of shock can also be amusing. I won't sabotage with someone i don't know because some men don't take too kindly to it.

I always say "yeah" or "yeesss" if im successfully sabotaged and give "winning smile" so, Cruella, bring it on..!

[Cruella]

Originally Posted by jockey

I always say "yeah" or "yeesss" if im successfully sabotaged and give "winning smile" so, Cruella, bring it on..!

No problem!

[Just Wiggle]

Myself and Just Wiggle both like to think of it as playing and certainly there are some guys out there that are really good at letting the woman play. However there are one's out there where there is no opportunity to be able to do this as they're so focused on what moves their doing that they bang them out one after another without any pausing!!

It's great when a guy gives you the opportunity to play especially if there is good tension and you can "wiggle" for a couple of beats

[Ghost]

How to lead this?

I can't find it but there's a thread on how to do this. I was advised by a taxi driver (sorry, dancer) that you can do this by 'prior arrngement' with the lady. Basically agree your own signals. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

I find the sway is a nice safe move to see what the lady's going to do. I've had ladies adding in steps, strutting around in front of me, wiggling etc. I'm basically just standing there so there's no real factor. I can also safely lead out the sway into a freeze and see what they do. If I get a look it's an easy transition to go into a return and then I know not to make the invite again. Some ladies play a bit. Some ladies play A LOT, or have really tricked out style in which case it's good odds that they're going to take other oppurtunities to strut their stuff during the dance. Personally it's an extension of how I normally dance. At all times I accept that the lady may not do what I think I'm leading and I am always ready to bail on my move and adapt to their movement. Same process applies when ladies take the initiative.

When to lead this?
I like to sync up with a few other basic moves at the beginning of a song first, but a sway in about the first quarter of the track gives a good guide as to what the lady's going to do (see above). Not a hard and fast rule though.

When to take the lead back?
Either as Gadget suggests when it feels right in the music, or when the lady looks like she's about to run out of steam (or you want your lead back ).

Lady's signal
The other option I've found is to do nothing ~ she took the lead, she'll give it back when she's ready, usually by doing a c-lead in the same way that some ladies will do at the very beginning to start a dance. Puts the responsibility of giving it back in sync with the music on her

I also appreciate that if a lady has gone to the trouble of developing all these moves and there's only a couple of guys willing to let her actually use them on a given night, it's not unreasonable that she cut loose when she realises she's got the opportunity.

And of course as a guy I pretty much know what the moves I lead are going to look like so it's a nice surprise to see something different. I enjoy leading the open first move because almost no-one recognises it and instead of doing it properly almost everyone tags on a slightly different piece of improv in the middle. It's an easy bail to offer left hand and pull the lady in if I get a

Lastly and this is a personal thing - I don't take the whole thing that seriously. If a lady wants to play or show me some moves that's cool. I'm happy to have my lead and musical expression messed with, because to me they're expendable to the cause of having a good time ~ for me a smiling lady trumps technical performance on my part.

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Ghost

I was advised by a taxi driver (sorry, dancer) that you can do this by 'prior arrngement' with the lady. Basically agree your own signals. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

No, no, no, no, and in case I'm not being clear, NO.

Signals in freestyle in themselves are (by general consensus) considered to be usually bad things.

And private signals are even worse than public signals - if you start getting into the habit of only being able to lead a move by giving explicit advance warning to the lady, you're just no leading it properly. This is magnified if you have a "secret language" with a few partners, it just develops very bad habits.

I'm not having a go at you here - but at the taxi dancer (you sure it wasn't a taxi driver?) who told you this. It's dumb advice.

Lovely thread, by the way, I'm learning a lot from it.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

No, no, no, no, and in case I'm not being clear, NO.

Signals in freestyle in themselves are (by general consensus) considered to be usually bad things.

Well it's hard to judge how representative they are of Cerocers as a whole, but there seem to be a few ardent supporters of signals on the forum (though one isn't actually a Cerocer ) so I figured I mention it in case they want to use it.

Lou, Martin - deja vu. Want to field this?

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I'm not having a go at you here

Originally Posted by DavidJames

- but at the taxi dancer (you sure it wasn't a taxi driver?) who told you this.

Well they had the taxi t-shirt... but I do get the two confused sometimes

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It's dumb advice.

Take care
Christopher

[Ghost]

Although it's not exactly proper improvising, I have had ladies call out requests for specific moves during a dance. Course I then have to figure out how to get from where I currently am to a point where I can dance the move ( and remember what the move is ) So far it's only ever been at most three requests per dance - usually only one - (and only one dance with requests per night. It's infrequent. I probably only get a request about once a month. I can picture the horrified faces of people thinking I spend all night dancing with ladies who call out lists of moves). Usually either they've remembered I know an unusual move they particularly like, or they know the song very well and really want to do a specific move to the end / break, specific phrase etc. The request is always accompanied by the "kid in a sweetshop look" so I always honour it. Hey, I get to lead what I want the other 99% of the time

Take care
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Ghost

there seem to be a few ardent supporters of signals on the forum, so I figured I mention it in case they want to use it.

"ardently support signals" is kinda the wrong way to put it. I won't argue with DavidJames that they are "usually bad things". On the other hand, I don't agree with ChrisA that they are always bad things.

Private signals for sabotage are roughly equivalent, in my mind, to private signals for aerials or suicide drops. Sabotage in MJ is a fairly rare thing, doesn't get taught often, and there's no universal agreement on how it should work. In that context, I can absolutely see why fixed partners would use private signals, or privately agree to use a specific subset of the varying ideas of how sabotage should work.

[doc martin]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Although it's not exactly proper improvising, I have had ladies call out requests for specific moves during a dance.
<< snip >>

Yeah I had this once too. The lady called out "First move out of the way when you do a cross body lead".

Now... I know quite a few variations on the first move, but I had to ask her how to do that one. It sounded quite simple really; I don't know why it's not taught more.

I don't think she'll be asking again.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by doc martin

Yeah I had this once too. The lady called out "First move out of the way when you do a cross body lead".

OK, that's just a basic cross-body lead, yes?

I can't see how a First Move can morph into a cross-body lead, seeing as how cross-body pulls the lady to your left (hence the name!) and a First Move pulls the lady to your right.

I like the "out of the way" though, it's a nice instruction to the guy to tell him to move to the side in a cross-body lead...

[Cruella]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

"ardently support signals" is kinda the wrong way to put it. I won't argue with DavidJames that they are "usually bad things". On the other hand, I don't agree with ChrisA that they are always bad things.

Private signals for sabotage are roughly equivalent, in my mind, to private signals for aerials or suicide drops. Sabotage in MJ is a fairly rare thing, doesn't get taught often, and there's no universal agreement on how it should work. In that context, I can absolutely see why fixed partners would use private signals, or privately agree to use a specific subset of the varying ideas of how sabotage should work.

Surely the idea of a sabotage move is to surprise the lead! (IMO) So to have signals really doesn't make sense to me. The pleasure i get from sabotaging is the look of shock or better still the big grin and laugh from the guy.