Ladies taking the initiative

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Cruella

Surely the idea of a sabotage move is to surprise the lead!

To take a simple example, look at the Figure of 8 Resistor. The move is meant to be a surprise, certainly. If the woman gave the man no warning, just overpowering his lead and spinning him round the other way, then I think that'd be a mistake. (unless he deserves or enjoys it, of course).

It doesn't need a huge amount of advance warning, but the guy needs the same amount of warning as a normal lead (IE, "prelead"), plus some because guys tend to lack practice following, plus some more because it's comparatively unusual. A private signal can optionally form a small part of that advanced warning.

[DavidB]

As Martin said, the signal he was referring to is given by the lady to the man. In keeping with the 'conversation' idiom of lead/follow, this signal means 'shut up - it's my turn'

It is interesting to note that the ability of the man to detect this signal does not depend on his dance skill or experience, but is purely down to his marital status.

A confirmed bachelor needs a very strong signal, possibly a slap around the face, or in extreme circumstances physically turning him away from the football showing on the TV in the bar.

A boyfriend/girlfriend can usually react to a simple physical touch. They are used to this... However visual and audible signals usually result in giggles and kissing.

An engaged couple start showing the first signs of ESP. A raised eyebrow from the lady is usually sufficient. Really good men start watching for twitching of the eye itself which sometimes precedes the eyebrow. Audible signals tend to make the man go pale with fear.

A married couple obviously can't work on audible signals, because by this time the man only reacts to every fifth word his wife says. However the ESP is something to behold. At the slightest hint of hijacking, the husband immediately lets go, reaches for his wallet, and prepares to pay the ransom.

DavidB

[Gadget]

pay the ransom, or the hi-jackers?

{you can tell my wife don't read this forum, can't you }

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

"ardently support signals" is kinda the wrong way to put it.

Sorry, didn't mean to misrepresent. Thanks for clarifying

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I won't argue with DavidJames that they are "usually bad things". On the other hand, I don't agree with ChrisA that they are always bad things.

Hmm I sense the beginnings of a Eureka! moment.
"Signals are a good thing. Clear and distinct signals should always be used whenever possible "

Am I right that nobody on the forum agrees with this?

Second set of thoughts

Signals innately contain drawbacks eg causing anticipation in the follow, or confusion as to what you're signalling etc. But they offer certain advantages eg can be used for styling, compensating for not being able to lead the move as is etc.

So ideally it's better to learn a way to get the benefits that doesn't entail the drawbacks. eg go to a workshop on style or lead.

From this comes two schools of thought

DISCLAIMER This is my interpretation and although I've accreddited it to specific people it may be wrong and I've mentioned them more as a guide. If Gadget, ChrisA, Martin and Lou (or anyone else) would comment it would be appreciated. I think I'm heading in the right direction, but I'm not sure I'm there yet.

Don't do it unless you can do it properly (Gadget, Chris A)
This school advocates not using signals at all. They mess with your dance. It's better to gradually build up moves that you can do unaided in freestyle rather than relying on signals.

Rules are there to make you think before you break them (Martin, Lou)
This school advocates that it's reasonable to use signals as long as you understand the drawbacks and use them selectively. If you can't dance a neckbreak at full speed yet without signals, then use signals while you work on improving the speed at which you can it lead without signals. When you finally get to the stage where you can dance the neckbreak at full speed, then you stop signalling.

Thanks
Christopher

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Rules are there to make you think before you break them (Martin, Lou)
This school advocates that it's reasonable to use signals as long as you understand the drawbacks and use them selectively. If you can't dance a neckbreak at full speed yet without signals, then use signals while you work on improving the speed at which you can it lead without signals. When you finally get to the stage where you can dance the neckbreak at full speed, then you stop signalling.

School 2a (me): The first rule is, you don't talk about signals.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

School 2a (me): The first rule is, you don't talk about signals.

That's why I didn't include you with one of the other schools
What's the second rule?

I think Ceroc has already adopted third rule
"Everyone must signal on their first night"
Take care,
Christopher

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Ghost

"Signals are a good thing. Clear and distinct signals should always be used whenever possible "

Am I right that nobody on the forum agrees with this?

Not quite: If (visual/verbal) signals are used, then they should be clear and distinct.

Don't do it unless you can do it properly

Rules are there to make you think before you break them

Not really two areas: Signals have developed more as a short-hand method of doing something 'properly' - eg the signal for a man spin is primaraly to get the lead's hand/arm out of the way and not get it trapped; it's just a 'bonus' that is also acts as a signal to the follower of the impending move.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Not quite: If (visual/verbal) signals are used, then they should be clear and distinct.

But should they always be used?

Originally Posted by Gadget

Not really two areas: Signals have developed more as a short-hand method of doing something 'properly' - eg the signal for a man spin is primaraly to get the lead's hand/arm out of the way and not get it trapped; it's just a 'bonus' that is also acts as a signal to the follower of the impending move.

Ok, so for example the point of the signal for a neckbreak is to get your right arm above shoulder level, which you'd have to do anyway and stop the lady trying to put her left hand on your shoulder when you turn her out.

So the problem becomes when the signal isn't a helpful short-hand that you'd do anyway and is more of a "I'll tap my nose twice to signal you can play" variety? eg

Originally Posted by Lou

When following, I will also sometimes use a squeeze of the hand to indicate to my partner that I'd like some time to play. And I've had it done to me by the Leader, to say that there's an opportunity to take control, if I want.

Originally Posted by Gadget

Personally, I would take a hand squeeze as a 'that was good' or 'thank-you' (unless there is a terrified expression on my partner's face at the time) Most partners who want time to play, generally just take it when the opportunity arrives or I lead them into some 'dead' space.
Was the hand-squeeze followed by a lack of leading? If so, why the hand-squeeze in the first plce?

Originally Posted by Lou

Just a matter of courtesy, to allow the Follower a nano-second more to understand that playtime is coming up.

Originally Posted by Gadget

and that nano-second couldn't be a subtle deceleration or lightening of the lead instead? Why use an obvious signal that probably takes longer and has to be translated by your partner instead of easing them into it?

Originally Posted by Lou

Dunno. I have partners who do both. And both methods work fine.

Originally Posted by Lou

That means that she knows that the Leader is aware there's a break coming up & she can do something, without hi-jacking his lead (which, if I recall correctly, is something you're not too fond of).

Originally Posted by Gadget

{} With some of the ladies I dance with, I've had to become a bit more tollerant in my old age Na - I still dislike someone hi-jacking - I am just a bt more aware of the "signals" and l pretend that it was all my idea in the first place

Originally Posted by Lou

Also, I use it if I'm in a R-R hold going into a return & I fancy doing a ronde. Quite often a chap will fancify a R-R return himself - so this warns him that I'd like a go...

(I think I've got the above copied and pasted correctly. I've changed the order slightly to try and maintain the orginal context / flow). Apologies if I've erred. )

So if there was a signal for a lady to play, that was a natural part of how the guy would move / lead, then this would be acceptable, whereas my idea of tapping my nose twice isn't?

Alternatively you can just lead a move first that flows directly into the beginning of the move and skip the signal stage eg sway to freeze to play

Incidentally last week, I was taught (by the teacher as part of the class this time, no taxis of either persuasion involved) that the signal for a freeze into play out of a sway is to "pull down sharply on the lady's hand and push your thumb on the back of her hand". So thumb signals are the way to go
"I'm not making this up" ~ Brett Butler, The Child Ain't Right

Admittedly I may have misunderstood

So I'm getting closer but still not quite there with this whole signals lark.

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

Having been stuck in a 4 hour traffic jam the other day I remembered a couple of other ways that ladies signal that they're ending play.

1. Whilst playing (if you still have hold of their hand) they gradually step backwards until they reach the position you'd be in at the beginning of a move when you'd both stepped back. At this point you can lead normally just by pulling in. Ladies will normally time their last step to coincide with the beat, but if you miss it, will keep playing on the spot allowing you to catch the next. I assume that if you miss that, they'll C-lead you in to re-start, but I haven't gotten to that stage (yet). You can shorten the length of their play time by taking your own steps back mirroring them and effectively cutting the time in half. Likewise if they're playing on the spot and don't step back, you can walk youself back untill you reach the "stepped back position distance" and lead as above.

2. Ladies can also use the comb bail out of simply pushing off part of your anatomy as a clear way of showing they're finished playing / don't want to do that move ~ try and catch the hand they push off with and lead from there. It's a little bit trickier if they're behind you - offer your hands back and hope they take them a la the catapult.

Another way to lead the lady to play is the Accordian followed by the guy turning on the spot ending with his back to her and putting the lady's hands on his shoulders (or whatever way you prefer to get in to this position). The only real problem with it is that the guy can't really see what's going on. Likewise the guy freezing half-way through the shoulder drop gives an opportunity for the lady to play - it's not so great because if the lady doesn't take the opportunity it's harder to tell due to the restricted vision.

If you don't want ladies improvising keep an eye on which moves they high-jack / improvise to (they probably won't know improv for everything - I appreciate that this is a contradiction in terms, but seems none-the-less to be true. I've watched ladies improvise exactly the same thing repeatedly. Generally looks cool though, so worth repeating ) and just don't lead those moves. I remember as a beginner the other beginninging guys were fairly annoyed that they would lead a nice simple first move but some ladies would go and add in extra steps, wave their arms around and decapitate the people around you . To be fair, most ladies I've danced with who are happy to improvise either don't take up much room and / or have good floorcraft (but there are unfortunately exceptions )

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Not quite: If (visual/verbal) signals are used, then they should be clear and distinct.

Originally Posted by Ghost

But should they always be used?

Sorry Gadget, I misunderstood what you were saying the first time I read this



Christopher

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Ghost

I was taught (by the teacher as part of the class this time, no taxis of either persuasion involved) that the signal for a freeze into play out of a sway is to "pull down sharply on the lady's hand and push your thumb on the back of her hand".

That's a fairly standard lead for a freeze. As well as MJ, I've also been taught it in Lindy. The downwards lead encourages the girl's body to stay put, and makes it hard for her to step anywhere without breaking frame. I'm sure we've discussed this on forum before, come to think of it. See also DavidB's notes on Leading nothing.

Originally Posted by Ghost

I assume that if you miss that, they'll C-lead you in to re-start...

Ladies: please never do this. Thanks.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

That's a fairly standard lead for a freeze.

The pull down yes, but it's the first time I've heard about pressing down on the back of her hand with your thumb
On the other hand "Never put your thumb on the back of the lady's hand because it's uncomfortable" I've heard quite a bit in class.

Still this answers how to lead a lady to improvise with a signal, that seems a natural part of how a guy would move. I do it slightly differently in that I move the lady's hand in a steep arc down and slightly to my left then pendulum it back to centre. It's a more gentle way to bleed off their momentum, but also allows me to ride the pendulum up and to the right and into something else if they don't freeze.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I'm sure we've discussed this on forum before, come to think of it.

Yep, I remember reading it in the archives, but unfortunately...

Originally Posted by Me

I can't find it, but there's a thread on how to do this.

See also DavidB's notes on Leading nothing.
Thanks. Although I sometimes get a when I try to actually lead nothing because it suits a specific moment. ie not "I want you to play" or "I want you to freeze" just "I want to enjoy this moment of stillness" - it's a more relaxed state than a freeze.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Ladies: please never do this. Thanks.

How do you feel about ladies starting the dance with a C-lead? I thought it was helpful when I was a beginner, now however.....

But hey, it's only one beat

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Ghost

So if there was a signal for a lady to play, that was a natural part of how the guy would move / lead, then this would be acceptable, whereas my idea of tapping my nose twice isn't?

Despite my better judgement (and lack of knowledge), I'm getting sucked into this...

Some signals are basically just exaggerations of natural body movements - like the neckbreak or the manspin; you pretty much have to put your hand in those positions anyway, and the "signalling" part of it is just to increase that movement, or possibly do it a bit earlier than normal. As these signals tend to smooth into your natural dance style in time, there's nothing wrong (IMO) with these.

Other signals, however, are substitutes for not leading a move correctly - for example, shouting "duck" to the lady rather than leading her into a duck (yes, it can be done, even by a wee blert like me). Or "double tapping on the thumb then giving a wink" or some damned thing. These signals lead to laziness, laziness leads to fear, fear leads to... etc.

So my rule of, ahem, thumb on this, is that if it looks and feels natural, it's not a problem. If it's something you have do do "separate from the dance" as an extra message, that's not good.

Originally Posted by Ghost

Incidentally last week, I was taught (by the teacher as part of the class this time, no taxis of either persuasion involved) that the signal for a freeze into play out of a sway is to "pull down sharply on the lady's hand and push your thumb on the back of her hand". So thumb signals are the way to go

I think that's more of a signal to your partner never to dance with you again...

OK, that is sort of what you do to indicate "stop" naturally, but I'd worry that some leaders could be excessively rough with that as taught; excessive pulling and gripping could ensue. Teaching freezes is a bit tricky in a big class.

Coming out of a sway, you really don't need a strong lead to control the lady; your hand is low, she's not going anywhere, so just keeping it low usually does the trick.

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Ghost

How do you feel about ladies starting the dance with a C-lead? I thought it was helpful when I was a beginner, now however.....

Why is the lady starting the dance?
Why is *she* signalling you with a hand circle?

Anyway, a few thoughts on circling, etc. (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/lat...html#to_circle)

SpinDr