Ladies taking the initiative

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Heather
Just because Ceroc promote this as a male led dance doesn't mean that a woman can't use her initiative now and then!

Now I'm all for this. I don't expect a lady to improvise, but I like it when she does. I'll try and give the lady a chance to do something whenever I can.

We haven't had a poll for a while...

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Now I'm all for this. I don't expect a lady to improvise, but I like it when she does. I'll try and give the lady a chance to do something whenever I can.

Funny David, I was just about to start a thread on that very subject...
I agree with you, that it is great when women can show more expression and should have room to improvise.
However, few women actually take the chance and I am not sure that as a man, you can impose it on your partner either.
I also find that when women go off in an improvisation, I am either missing it (not noticing on time) or not sure how much time to leave them, and often end up cutting short their bout of improvising.

What I would like is a sort of "reverse lead" where the women are able to indicate (signal?) to the men when they want to improvise. Some women already do it up to a point, but I reckon it could be developed more.
As in the thread about men slowing down moves, using subtle hand-holds, women should be able to indicate to their partner when they want to slow down the dance, or pause it temporarily to do their own (stylish) thing! A gentle squeeze, a thumb strategically placed, eye contact etc...

I would be interested to hear from women who do a lot of improvising and from the men who "lead" them.

Cheers,

Franck.

[Grant]

I was thinking about this over the weekend because I was dancing with a few partners who were willing and able to improvise but most of the moves I know didn't give them much scope to do so

Or perhaps it is just the way I lead the moves rather than the moves themselves.

Any suggestions???



Grant

[Graham]

Originally posted by Franck
I also find that when women go off in an improvisation, I am either missing it (not noticing on time) or not sure how much time to leave them, and often end up cutting short their bout of improvising.

What I would like is a sort of "reverse lead" where the women are able to indicate (signal?) to the men when they want to improvise. Some women already do it up to a point, but I reckon it could be developed more.
As in the thread about men slowing down moves, using subtle hand-holds, women should be able to indicate to their partner when they want to slow down the dance, or pause it temporarily to do their own (stylish) thing! A gentle squeeze, a thumb strategically placed, eye contact etc...

Completely agree. In fact I was just saying the other day to someone who gives me a lot of problems in this regard that I'd love to let her do her own thing more, but I can't read when she wants to do it, or when she's coming to the end of it. So a signal would be great. I was going to say perfect, but I suppose perfection would be "just knowing".

[Bill]

Originally posted by Franck
Funny David, I was just about to start a thread on that very subject...
I agree with you, that it is great when women can show more expression and should have room to improvise.
However, few women actually take the chance and I am not sure that as a man, you can impose it on your partner either.

That's maybe becuase the women up here just aren't encouraged, trained, or expected to improvise very much. I've found that many of the women dancing in England are happy to do their own thing when allowed to by the man ( and sometimes when they want to anyway ! :sorry)

There are now a number of women up here who have danced with men who enjoy stopping at breaks, playing with the music etc and are very happy to do whatever. I still get some odd looks when I stop and look at my partner and she wonders why I'm not moving ! But I usually only do that with women I know well.

And women who haven't been away can now see a number of others who improvise and so the idea spreads. It also develops from seeing people like Nigel and Nina and Viktor & Lydia who really do dance to the music, find the breaks and have wonderful fun. It can't help but rub off just watching them.

What I would like is a sort of "reverse lead" where the women are able to indicate (signal?) to the men when they want to improvise. Some women already do it up to a point, but I reckon it could be developed more.

The women I dance with most in Aberdeen and Edinburgh either involuntarily motion with their head or eyes, or almost break with the music so it's clear when to move on. There are some moves where the woman can just walk towards the man but I have to admit if she's still strutting her stuff when the beat changes or the tempo does I'll pull her into a move and get going.

However, a tap with her thumb would be a pretty clear signal to the man! Mind you there might be some women who could spend the whole song doing their own thing..............and before there are any complaints that might not be a bad thing eh :sorry :p

[denise]

I'd like to see more men improvise. This, i think encourages the women to be more adventurous with her moves. I suppose its a two way situation.

Denise

[Wendy]

Now here's a thread with my name on it and I'm ready for a fight if necessary !!!

Some guys almost come out in a rash when I try to do my own thing !!! - they have that " what the **** are you doing, this is a male-led dance, you freak !!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad "" look on their face. And then there are the other people who look a little surprised but seem to be loving it and those who well... you know ... it just fits.... (mind you, those are the same ones who smile when I do the "wrong" thing so I never really know if I'm making a complete mess of things or if they are loving it )

Doesn't the music just scream things at you sometimes ?? Take Santana (Moonflower I think - Ceroc Jock knows the one I mean !!!) the one with the da da da daaa rising notes bit and the doo doo doo doo doo dooo dodododododo stop !!!! Hard to remember exactly when I've got a crap cold and can't sleep :sorry . I feel like I've heard that record a 1000 times and like to think I know it off by heart. Some men however just seem to do their in and out together away thing regardless. !! I mean how can you be half way through a side to side when you have a musical moment like that !!!!! Incroyable mais vrai !!!

I suppose I spent years (and years !!) dancing by myself in France (no need for a mate or a hand bag - it was great )The last time I got the chance to do that was at Robert's party and Mhari thought I'd had a few (mmmm read into that what you want ) and I hadn't , I was just dancing WITH the music (probably had my eyes shut too!!!! ) I miss that ....

Anyway, I sometimes think that most people don't care about the music at all - bet you could put on that "Boogie Woogie" thing half way through "Fever" and some people wouldn't even notice !!! (OK I'm exaggerating- God you won't believe this but I just looked up my dictionary to check the spelling on that and opened it at foreman - spooookkkyyyy - a little for dramatic effect) And that's why I like to dance with special people to special records.

I love CEROC and I love most of the music. (The music I really like never seems to be CEROCable ) And I just love the men who understand what it is I'm trying to do when I do my own thing - without a wink or a squeeze or whatever but simply cos the music is doing the talking (dare I say the leading ????)

Wxxx

PS Sorry about all the brackets - it's another one of my bad habits :sorry

[Lou]

Originally posted by bill foreman
That's maybe becuase the women up here just aren't encouraged, trained, or expected to improvise very much.

I don't think it's regional, because we're not encouraged here either. I get the feeling that even double spins in returns would be greeted with confused frowns around here.

There's a couple of moves I know where the woman can take the lead, but it does depend on having a partner who knows them. (Do you have the Figure Of Eight Resistor in CEROC? Man goes under... lady goes under, but instead of allowing herself to be returned, presses back against the man's hand, indicating that the man should turn back under again. Imagine the expressions you get from the man then, Wendy!).

I'll admit to slowing down a comb when neccessary

Putting in style points, wiggles, etc., though, are always encouraged.

[Fran]

What I would like is a sort of "reverse lead" where the women are able to indicate (signal?) to the men when they want to improvise. Some women already do it up to a point, but I reckon it could be developed more.

I would be interested to hear from women who do a lot of improvising and from the men who "lead" them.

Franck




I think it would be safe to say that I do quite a lot of improvisation - particulary in blues which probebly one of my favorite dance styles. It is definatley easier with a partner you know because you become very familiar with their body signals. I do sometimes take the initiative and introdue a impro with a partner who does not lead it, but am very concious that they may not approve, it usually only happens when a particular record comes on and you are very aware that there are some really good breaks in it and really want to use them.


I became used to improvisation because one of my first regular dance partners in Edinburgh ( snake hips brian) introduced me to it and I discovered how much fun it could be. The work shops I have attended on musicality, blues, interpretation, lead and follow, and importantly dancing with men from all over Britian who do encourage the lady to shine a little have all been really helpful to me in understanding it and building my confidence - which to those who know me personally will know its not that great - but I am working on it!!!.


If I am looking for a prompt to go into some improvisation if it is not a particular move which we both know includes it I guess I take my cue from the mans body language - somtime a very slight hesiation or eye contact on his part seems to do the trick,also if the man is standing still then it seems a very natural cue. This is just personal and other ladies may disagree with me and have other cues.

It would be really useful if the ladies could have hand signal which we could give to cue and impro, but the main thing is to understand the music and when to do it. There never seems to be enough time in the usual ceroc classes for the teachers to talk about improvisation and breaks which is a shame as it could help spread the habit. and it is so much fun


fran

[Fran]

Just for the record, there are some fabby dancers in Scotland who are very willing to let the ladies use some improvisation

Fran

[Franck]

Originally posted by Fran
I do sometimes take the initiative and introdue a impro with a partner who does not lead it, but am very concious that they may not approve, it usually only happens when a particular record comes on and you are very aware that there are some really good breaks in it and really want to use them.

Yep I agree, and this is pretty much what happens at the moment!
I would also like to stress that "taking the lead" to improvise should only be done with men who are already good leads, otherwise, it might completely shatter what little confidence they had in the first place. My point was about improvising with a man, who is happy to allow you to do so, or indeed, like Denise mentions who improvises himself!
I reckon women, who want to develop this aspect of their dancing, could take leading cues from men who can slow down the move and pause the dance to add a bit of Style or expression. Unfortunately though, leading well is difficult, and possibly even an art! So a lot of practise might be needed and the same principles would apply for women about a clear yet subtle lead...

If I am looking for a prompt to go into some improvisation if it is not a particular move which we both know includes it I guess I take my cue from the mans body language - somtime a very slight hesiation or eye contact on his part seems to do the trick,also if the man is standing still then it seems a very natural cue. This is just personal and other ladies may disagree with me and have other cues.

This is from the perspective of the man leading / allowing his partner a chance to improvise, but from experience, unless both dancers are used to dancing together often, or very atune to each other, the men will lead a impro break when his partner will not have inspiration or miss a moment when she would have

It would be really useful if the ladies could have hand signal which we could give to cue and impro, but the main thing is to understand the music and when to do it.

I agree, that if both dancers understand the music, then it should work, but often everyone has a very different way of interpreting the music, and as Wendy says, a musical phrase she finds expressive might do nothing for her partner and vice versa.
Having a subtle lead/cue for women to warn their partner of the start & end of a bit of improvisation would help a lot! Except that as Bill points out, we might then realise that a lot of women don't have much more musical / beat understanding than the men

[CJ]

First thing: there isn't a," I like it when a woman improvises but I panic as I have no idea how to stop it, when it finishes, where to go, whate's next, and, and ,em,.oh ****, where's the beat." option.

Secondly, I kind of feel I improvise a fair bit. Because I don't do a class as such that often, I find myself starting 1 move, run out of knowledge on how it finishes and end on a different move (which is great for knowing looks from your partner
: that look W. mentioned earlier.)

That said, I do have my stock moves, and OH YES, I use them well. Run out of steam now, where were we? Oh, yes. double handed catapult into thingimmyjig.

Remembered now. Improv is great. Maybe hints @ intermediate classes to help us control freaks handle it with a little more grace and dignity?

[Gadget]

A woman doing her own thing is fine; but when it interrupts the middle of a move, or a lead into a move, it's {I was going to say annoying, but that's the wrong word} off-putting. For example, if a lady does a double spin in a return and the man is not prepared for it, nine times out of ten they just stand; waiting to be able to take the lead again. Not very save or stylish.

I don't mind the lady improvising, but not taking the initiative.

My thoughtsÉ
How to lead this? I try to pause for a fraction of a second at a convenient moment instead of smoothly transforming one move into the next (At least that's the way it works in my head!:p)
If the lady is 'game' then they will take up the initiative.
If not, then they will only notice a slight 'error' with puzzlement and I won't try it that way again.
If they miss it, and it clicks that a window of opportunity had passed, you can normally feel it in the move out and try again.

When to lead this? When I feel gentle resistance in some moves then I presume that the lady wanted to do something there and I led it somewhere else - I'll try do it again and give her the chance, preferably with the same musical frame. (easier said than done ) I think that this is more body language rather than a conscious thing.

When to take the lead back? When the music changes: There are natural breaks and phrases in songs and you are (hopefully) both dancing to the same melody. I feel that many short improvisations look better than the lady dominating the dance

Lady's signal Bad move in my opinion; by the time the man realises that you want to show off on your own, the musical window will have passed - the lead would have to mentally drop everything to let you do your thang, then pick it up again once you were done. This is not so much the lady leading by "taking the lead", but leading by remote control. {and you know how us men never want to relinquish that! - shudder}
I feel that ladies shouldn't need a signal - the lead should be able to pick up on their partner's style and interpretation of the music to be able to leave enough white space for their partner to fill.
It is another skill that a good lead should learn; observation.

[Fran]

Originally posted by Gadget
if a lady does a double spin in a return and the man is not prepared for it, nine times out of ten they just stand; waiting to be able to take the lead again. Not very save or stylish.

Lady's signal Bad move in my opinion; by the time the man realises that you want to show off on your own, the musical window will have passed - the lead would have to mentally drop everything to let you do your thang, then pick it up again once you were done. This is not so much the lady leading by "taking the lead", but leading by remote control. {and you know how us men never want to relinquish that! - shudder}

GADGET

I dont mean to be cheeky Gadget, but then perhaps there could be something gained for the men in practicing a stance which looks and feels good for them while the lady is spining or learn to do some extra spinning yourself. A lot of women easily do mulitple spins ( although I am not really one of them) are you suggesting that all these ladies should stop and stick to 1 spin?
I am not sure that double spinning is really improvisation in its true sense.

you may have a point that some people may miss the window at first , but at the very least it would help both male and females who are just beginjng to experiment with this and ultimatley make it more aceptable.

I feel that ladies shouldn't need a signal - the lead should be able to pick up on their partner's style and interpretation of the music to be able to leave enough white space for their partner to fill.

great in an ideal world gadget , but the reality is that this does not happen very often and it then when it does it is usually with more confident and experienced leaders.

There are many people who have highlighted that they are unsure of what to do and when to do it when they first start introducing improvisation,and i agree with Denise it should be for both partners, People need to have the opertunity to build up a confidence level and enjoy it at the same time,If people can not get the the oppertunity to attend special workshops, then by having a recognised signal explained in a ceroc class may be a possiable way for both partners to get to grips with it and feel some success - it is supposed to be fun.

Fran

[Bill]

Franck/Lorna


As this is an issue and also an opportunity why not set up a workshop to help develop the skills of dancing to the music and for women to 'improvise'.

Nigel and Nina (amongst others) have taught breaks and musical appreciation and have been very successful so why not encourage more dancers to really listen and interpret the music and the beat

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Franck/Lorna

As this is an issue and also an opportunity why not set up a workshop to help develop the skills of dancing to the music and for women to 'improvise'.

Great idea, I would love to spend some time with Lorna, Lisa and Mairi, looking at ways to lead / follow, and reverse lead / follow to allow for creativity and develop that into a new workshop. I am not sure I would have the time to work on it for a while, with Perth / Stirling opening soon, but I will speak to a couple of teachers down South who specialize into that and see if they fancy a trip North of the border next year

Franck.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Fran
I dont mean to be cheeky Gadget,

Don't worry Fran, you'll soon get the hang of the forum

Originally posted by Fran
but then perhaps there could be something gained for the men in practicing a stance which looks and feels good for them while the lady is spining or learn to do some extra spinning yourself. A lot of women easily do mulitple spins ( although I am not really one of them) are you suggesting that all these ladies should stop and stick to 1 spin?
I am not sure that double spinning is really improvisation in its true sense.

I agree - multiple spinning is technically an improvisation, but not really in the same category as breaks etc. I can easily cope with this (although it can be difficult with people who are just starting and finish off-beat), and I'm sure most men can.

Originally posted by Fran

great in an ideal world gadget , but the reality is that this does not happen very often and it then when it does it is usually with more confident and experienced leaders.

I agree with Fran. For one thing, one of you is quite likely to know the particular track better than the other, so a signal would avoid any misunderstandings about how long the improvisation is going to last. I think one of the most stylish things about breaks can be ending them by launching a new move just on a particular beat or note of the music, and this needs to be prepared for - if you wait until you actually hear the music change it'll be too late.

I'd say a signal for improvisation was analogous to the hand semicircle - it's taught in classes so that everyone can dance with anyone, but with partners who are used to each other or both very good it is superfluous and gets dropped.

In common with other posts, I think improvisation is something which could/should be taught at a workshop.