Lines and Photos

[MartinHarper]

I enjoy watching great dancers, and I like to learn a bit about what great dancers work on so I can appreciate what they're doing. "Dance appreciation", if you will. Anyway, a snippet of something I read elsewhere:

Originally Posted by Matt Smiley

http://www.jivejunction.com/photoalb...ages/01762.jpg
One of my favorite pictures ever! That line that flows from Marty's extended rear foot through his back, down his arm and across the top part of Jen's frame is really impressive. Also notice how his right forearm hangs perfectly parallel to his thigh - it's subtle, but as a stylistic choice, it's the little things like this that make a picture really stand out.

Just fishing to see if anyone had similarly impressive photos from MJ that they'd like to commentate on.

[Andy McGregor]

Dance is a dynamic thing. Still photos do not really capture the full nature of dance. Watch a video and you're closer, witness a live performance and it's closer - but, you really need to be part of the partnership to experience the whole picture

[Yliander]

OK but I have been looking at the photo for sometime now - and first up - it looks more like it is swing than MJ.

second I don't see the line orginally refered to - to me it looks like the guy is trying not to fall over.....

and finally - I would question the parallelness of the arm and thigh - think it is merely the persective of this picture.

Andy you are so right - still pictures do indeed struggle to catpture the true nature of MJ indeed any dance but do think it can be done - it takes a lot of film, a lot of patience and the eternal hope that at least one photo on the role will be semi good and the prayer that one day you will catpure that magic moment just so

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Yliander

OK but I have been looking at the photo for sometime now - and first up - it looks more like it is swing than MJ...

It looks like swing to me too.

Dance is a multi-dimensional activity, and a photograph can only capture a small part of the essence of it. It can show the excitement of Lindy, or the elegance of a Foxtrot. For me the essences of MJ are fun and diversity, if diversity can be an essence. Something along the lines of the photo in the current caption competition captures that.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Just fishing to see if anyone had similarly impressive photos from MJ that they'd like to commentate on.

Ok ... Just for once I'm going to be a wet blanket. Is it just me or a case of "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome. To my (untrained) eye it just looks like any two dancers on a floor .. one looking rather ungainly, and the other trying to help him not fall over. I KNOW that it is so hard to catch the essence and style of a dynamic art form with a single frame shot ... BUT, I've seen a lot better (see the shots of the LeRoc and Brtiroc comeptitions). The need for holding 'lines' in MJ is lesser than the ability to move with both partner and music. That is not to undermine the importance of 'pictures' (a la Amir) but I see nothing in that photo that teaches or inspires. Soory

[MartinHarper]

Yeah, it happens to be swing (Lindy in fact) - that's why I'm interested in seeing some similar stuff from MJ.

you really need to be part of the partnership to experience the whole picture

If being part of the dance let you experience the whole picture, people wouldn't bother videoing themselves dancing. I take the point, but I figure that there's stuff that a photo can capture that a video can't.

Gus - I think what caught my interest in particular was the commentary: someone taking the time to draw my attention to two particular things in the photo that he felt looked really cool. I found that more inspiring than the norm: a photo, a "wow", and smileys to taste. *shrug*

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gus

Is it just me or a case of "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome.

It's not just you, Gus.

It doesn't do anything for me either. It's quite a nice pic, in focus, caught quite nicely, but all that stuff about extended lines and arms parallel to thighs I think is rather overstated. More about the luck of when the shutter opened than anything else IMHO.

Nothing wrong with it, and I'd be pleased if it was my friends and I'd managed to take that pic, but no wow factor for me.

Chris

[Chicklet]

Originally Posted by Gus

: Is it just me or a case of "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome. :

NEW clothes????

Scruffy OLD clothes more like!!!

Not a sequin in sight!

Photo should be captioned "Juvenile Delinquents getting away with dancefashioncrime"

[DavidB]

That line that flows from Marty's extended rear foot through his back, down his arm and across the top part of Jen's frame is really impressive. Also notice how his right forearm hangs perfectly parallel to his thigh - it's subtle, but as a stylistic choice, it's the little things like this that make a picture really stand out

These things might make this picture better than the rest that were taken. However you would also need to look at the rest of the picture- the lady's line is definitely not flattering. She looks like she is holding on for dear life, and really fighting to keep her balance. Her bent arm stops the eye moving along the line. Instead it has to 'jump' from her hand to her face.

(Note - this is not a criticism of their dancing - just the photo. No matter how good a dancer you are, there will always be some positions you are in that are more photogenic than others.)

Generally dancing photos look better when you can see both faces. In this case a photo from the other side of the man might be better.

It also looks out of focus.

Having said all that, it is still a pretty good photo, and does capture a lot of the dynamic movement you get in Lindy.

David

[SwingSwingSwing]

Ok ... Just for once I'm going to be a wet blanket. Is it just me or a case of "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome. To my (untrained) eye it just looks like any two dancers on a floor .. one looking rather ungainly, and the other trying to help him not fall over. I KNOW that it is so hard to catch the essence and style of a dynamic art form with a single frame shot ... BUT, I've seen a lot better (see the shots of the LeRoc and Brtiroc comeptitions). The need for holding 'lines' in MJ is lesser than the ability to move with both partner and music. That is not to undermine the importance of 'pictures' (a la Amir) but I see nothing in that photo that teaches or inspires. Soory

Different people looking at the same thing = Different opinions. :-)

To me that photo does capture the essence and style of a dynamic art form. The picture is pure Lindy Hop. It's a great photo and is definitely inspirational.

(Some background about the dancers. The couple are Marty and Jen who were teaching in London last week at the London Balboa Festival. (I think) this photo was taken at the Ultimate Lindy Hop Showdown. The aim of this event is to try and get back to the roots of Lindy Hop. It's raw and fast and this photo captures the rawness. It looks like it was taken during the competition phase and they are dancing to a live band. For what I've heard about the music it would have been flying, maybe 240+bpm. (in the "fast dance" section tempos get to 300+).
If you want see a clip of raw Lindy Hop. There's a great video of the Mad Dog team (which Marty and Jen were co-founders of) competing here http://swingoutdc.com/movies/danvers2002.avi. It's a big file around 20MB. I don't expect many people on this board to like it, but I'd hope they would certainly appreciate it.)

Recently, I had a look at some of the photos of BritRoc (I can't remember which ones). The vast majority of the photos were drops or seducers which I suppose do capture some of the style of MJ but nothing of the dynamics of the dance.I found them pretty dull. (Plus, all the sparkles and matching outfits. Yuck. To me a dance competition should be about dancing. What the dancers are wearing shouldn't enter into it but that's a different topic)

In contrast, the photo on the caption thread with Aleks, TheTramp, Sheena & Franck I think is a great photo. What makes it a great photo is Franck laughing. That helps convey the fun aspect of dance. If the picture was cropped leaving just Trampie and Aleks in a seducer, it doesn't say much about the dance.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. I suppose the moral is "you can't tell a dance from a photo". :-)

SwingSwingSwing

[Jayne]

I agree with most people here in that this isn't a great photo. (But then I don't like Lindy anyway... But that's another thread...). IMHO the so-called "line" is very poor. If you want lines, try looking at pictures of ballroom dancers, where you get great lines and they're not all drops.

By chance, I was trying to overcome Friday afternoon boredom and looked up the webpage of the Rambert. There are some impressive dance photos on the intro that some of you may be interested in...

J

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It's not just you, Gus.

It doesn't do anything for me either. It's quite a nice pic, in focus, caught quite nicely, but all that stuff about extended lines and arms parallel to thighs I think is rather overstated. More about the luck of when the shutter opened than anything else IMHO.

Nothing wrong with it, and I'd be pleased if it was my friends and I'd managed to take that pic, but no wow factor for me.

Chris

Agree

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by SwingSwingSwing

The vast majority of the (Britroc) photos were drops or seducers

Nod. Not wildly keen on that: certainly very impressive, but I find them hard to relate to. Here's an MJ photo I quite like, though...


(larger version)

I like it because Michelle's eyes (appear to) show where all her attention is: on the hand she's being lead with. It's also a nice illustration of that "spare arm frame" thing I like: she looks just as ready to be lead through her left arm as her right. Oh, the unforced smile helps.
(IMO, YMMV, etc, etc)

[Divissima]

Originally Posted by SwingSwingSwing

(Plus, all the sparkles and matching outfits. Yuck. To me a dance competition should be about dancing. What the dancers are wearing shouldn't enter into it but that's a different topic)

Oi! That's me and my partner you're saying "yuck" about (as well as other coordinated and/or sparkly forumites). To each his own, I guess. To me competition isn't just about dancing - it is also about performing to the audience/judges (to my mind this is the major difference between social and competitive dancing) and IMHO costume is part of the performance. I agree, though, that this is a whole other topic (perhaps worthy of a new thread?).

Dance photography is a tricky business. I thought Beytan's photos from Britroc were excellent. I have not yet made the transition to digital so waste a lot of film on photos where the couple have just finished doing something dramatic which I missed I persevere though. It's very difficult to end up with an image which conveys something of the spirit of MJ - I often find that my pictures look static. I love a whoosh of hair or skirt which conveys the movement. My favourite photos convey something of the connection between the couple dancing - whether they have eye contact or their faces reflect the same emotion or a reaction to what the other is doing. Very hard to capture though. Will keep trying.....

[spindr]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Nod. Not wildly keen on that: certainly very impressive, but I find them hard to relate to. Here's an MJ photo I quite like, though...

Nice snap, but it's a bit cluttered as a photo, especially the lampost growing out of the head -- and from a composition point of view seems to have cut off the arms, feet, partner, etc.

Maybe you can post some pictures of your own dancing for us to discuss?

SpinDr.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by SwingSwingSwing

If you want see a clip of raw Lindy Hop. There's a great video of the Mad Dog team (which Marty and Jen were co-founders of) competing here http://swingoutdc.com/movies/danvers2002.avi. It's a big file around 20MB. I don't expect many people on this board to like it, but I'd hope they would certainly appreciate it.)

Funny, I thought of the Mad Dog team in connection with this thread as well. Your link isn't working for me, so I'm not sure if it's the same clip I have (16805888 bytes). I saw it a while ago; recommended as an example of "balls-out" Lindy Hop. So I downloaded it in all anticipation, and I have to say, it's not for me. (The same for many other high speed clips I've seen from Lindy comps). I find it looks bouncy, jerky and uncoordinated, and it seems the usual 'answer' to high speed tempos is replace footwork with jumping up and down (loud stomping sounds optional but recommended). Other people clearly see this as 'energy', but I'm afraid it just doesn't do it for me. I'm very much biased towards smooth lindy myself (e.g. Kevin/Carla, Steve/Rebecca, even Yuval/Natalie).

I realise the above is a bit harsh; in this context it seems pointless to sugar coat what I think - it is of course, only my personal opinion (and I'm assuming the chances of any of them ever reading this are approximately zero).

Recently, I had a look at some of the photos of BritRoc (I can't remember which ones). The vast majority of the photos were drops or seducers which I suppose do capture some of the style of MJ but nothing of the dynamics of the dance. I found them pretty dull.

Lindy dynamics definitely photograph very well relative to most styles. But relatively static lines are also much easier to photograph. Look at this 'best photos' page of a dance photographer: http://public.fotki.com/Swingshoes/d...stdancephotos/. Nearly all the shots are fairly static. (The lifts are probably being spun, but that's still relatively easy to photograph).

(Plus, all the sparkles and matching outfits. Yuck. To me a dance competition should be about dancing. What the dancers are wearing shouldn't enter into it but that's a different topic)

You're right. I've never seen a Lindy Hopper wearing a zoot suit, or custom coloured shoes, or a hat, or brightly coloured braces... More seriously, I don't think people do the 'sparkle' thing for the judges - they do it for themselves. Dancing in front of an audience is an excuse to dress up, and lots of people like to take advantage. Lots of people don't, and I don't see any evidence they are penalised for that. I think we're a long way from Ballroom, or even WCS competitions yet...

Dave

[SwingSwingSwing]

Originally Posted by Jayne

I agree with most people here in that this isn't a great photo. (But then I don't like Lindy anyway... But that's another thread...). IMHO the so-called "line" is very poor. If you want lines, try looking at pictures of ballroom dancers, where you get great lines and they're not all drops

The concept of good 'lines' vary from person to person and from dance type to dance type. From a Lindy Hop perspective and my beliefs of what looks good in Lindy Hop the 'lines' exhibited by Marty in that photo are superb. A throwback to the carefree abandon that was part and parcel of Lindy Hop back in the day.

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Funny, I thought of the Mad Dog team in connection with this thread as well. Your link isn't working for me, so I'm not sure if it's the same clip I have (16805888 bytes). I saw it a while ago; recommended as an example of "balls-out" Lindy Hop. So I downloaded it in all anticipation, and I have to say, it's not for me. (The same for many other high speed clips I've seen from Lindy comps). I find it looks bouncy, jerky and uncoordinated, and it seems the usual 'answer' to high speed tempos is replace footwork with jumping up and down (loud stomping sounds optional but recommended). Other people clearly see this as 'energy', but I'm afraid it just doesn't do it for me. I'm very much biased towards smooth lindy myself (e.g. Kevin/Carla, Steve/Rebecca, even Yuval/Natalie).

Yip, I think it is the same clip. Looks like the file is not at that URL anymore. I've stuck a copy at http://ontherocks.org.uk/video/danvers2002.avi if anyone wants to see it. Admittedly, it's not for me either. I'll never be able to dance at that tempo in that style and I probably wouldn't want to. I'm too am biased towards smooth syle (Kevin&Carla, Nick Williams, Marcus&Baerbl) It *IS* bouncy and jerky and at times not very polished. It's raw Lindy Hop done at 290bpm. What Mad Dog are doing is recreating the essence and exubarence of Lindy Hop. I applaud their aims and can see why they do it. Just last night I came across a dance move website that had a collection of Lindy Moves. Some of these moves just did not look like Lindy Hop which lead me to muse for a bit as to where Lindy Hop is going.

Originally Posted by David Franklin

You're right. I've never seen a Lindy Hopper wearing a zoot suit, or custom
coloured shoes, or a hat, or brightly coloured braces... More seriously, I don't think people do the 'sparkle' thing for the judges - they do it for themselves. Dancing in front of an audience is an excuse to dress up, and lots of people like to take advantage. Lots of people don't, and I don't see
any evidence they are penalised for that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against dressing up or dressing up for competitions. I just don't like sparkly things and I really don't like matching outfits! (Sorry Divissima!) And I don't think dancers should get points in a dance competition just for their attire. (Just in passing, I don't like Zoot suits or custom coloured shoes. I do occassionally were a hat and I haven't worn brightly coloured braces since my MJ days!)

Originally Posted by David Franklin

I think we're a long way from Ballroom, or even WCS
competitions yet...

Spooky, In my last post I actually had a comment about MJ already heading down the Ballroom path but I removed it before submitting!


SwingSwingSwing

[Divissima]

Originally Posted by SwingSwingSwing

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against dressing up or dressing up for competitions. I just don't like sparkly things and I really don't like matching outfits! (Sorry Divissima!) And I don't think dancers should get points in a dance competition just for their attire.

Fair enough... As an aside, I'm not sure than competitors get many points for attire - for example, if there are five marks for presentation, dress/coordination usually (I believe) would only be one mark. It would surprise me if it was more.

I'm afraid I just love my sparkles

[Gadget]

We all love Sparkles here - she's the Queen!