Advanced Dancing

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
Interesting point. Personal view is that the best dances I've had are a factor of two points; 1) Who good my partner is, 2) How well our style meld

If you were entering a tennis tournament, would you play better with a #1.99 racket from Woolies or a #500 state of the art racket custom made?

Agree entirely ( again !) ..........it can be great fun dancing with a relatively new dancer because there is no expectation and if it goes wrong well...so what. I have found that I have higher expectaitions when dancing with regular partners to music I really like and I think Avril, Laura and Fran all know that sometimes these expectaitons can be too high :sorry

And as you say Gus, you can dance with a great female dancer but because you're styles don't match it doesn't click so it's not so much fun.

AS for the tennis analogy............for me it wouldn't make any difference and being an Aberdonian I wouldn't pay that much for a raquet anyway Think of all the CD's you could buy for £500................

[Dancing Veela]

Originally posted by DavidB
I don't think advanced classes should be a part of a normal class night. But there may be enough demand for something more than the occasional workshop.

David

David, I don't agree with you here - I think this is one of the reasons we lose some of the good dancers, the good dancers often get bored with the normal class nights because they aren't being taught anything new.

Also if you can only manage to go to one dance THING a week - and you can't go to weekend workshops you might hope to be able to improve your dancing at a dance CLASS (a normal class night).

[Jon]

Originally posted by Dancing Veela


David, I don't agree with you here - I think this is one of the reasons we lose some of the good dancers, the good dancers often get bored with the normal class nights because they aren't being taught anything new.

Totally agree with this. But how could advanced dancing be added into a normal ceroc class. After all theres usually just 1 teacher and 1 stage!

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Jon
Totally agree with this. But how could advanced dancing be added into a normal ceroc class. After all theres usually just 1 teacher and 1 stage!

I think that this is already being addressed; I've noticed that there have been more 'style' and technique points being inserted into the classes over the past few weeks. Although this may be a local phenominom (do do de do-do)?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jon


Totally agree with this. But how could advanced dancing be added into a normal ceroc class. After all theres usually just 1 teacher and 1 stage!

The increasingly common model is to make one class, say the first each month, have an advanced class rather than an intermediate class. As the 'advanced' element usualy revolevs around style and/or footwork rather than actual move, most people can do the class though they may not pick up all the intracacies (yeah ... I know, spelt wrong)

Originally posted by Dancin Veela

.David, I don't agree with you here - I think this is one of the reasons we lose some of the good dancers, the good dancers often get bored with the normal class nights because they aren't being taught anything new.

Also if you can only manage to go to one dance THING a week - and you can't go to weekend workshops you might hope to be able to improve your dancing at a dance CLASS (a normal class night).

Interesting point. In one of the NZ workshops the instructor made it clear that it was only a matter of time and practice to get from Intermediate to Advanced levels. I think he quoted that with 'just' dancing twice a week it would take 2/3 years ... dancing 3 times a week and practicing for 2 hours a week it could be done in about 12 months. Don't know if I totaly agree but the concept of practicing moves is interesting ... most people seem to get out of that habit after the first 3 or 4 weeks of ceroc ... or do they?

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus


but the concept of practicing moves is interesting ... most people seem to get out of that habit after the first 3 or 4 weeks of ceroc ... or do they?

Yes I think they ( I ?) do. We all practice for a while but then as we learn more moves we rarely practice them because there isn't time and when we do dance it's to learn more moves and to dance freestyle.

I think the only time I've practiced moves is just before a competition - trying to get them right and add what style I can ( my partners are always more stylish than me ) - which is a waste really as I forget them all when the music starts

If anyone was serious about improving then I think finding a aprtner and walking through moves for a couple of hours every week would help improve their range of moves, their confidence and possibly their style. But how many dancers have the time/energy/opportunity to do this ?

I suppose in the first year or two of Ceroc in Aberdeen a bunch of us went to a nightclub and danced for an hour or two going over the moves we had learned - and those we could remember. It's perhaps no coincidence that those of us who did this regularly began to improve but we only had one class a week ( excpet for a couple of us who ventured down to Dundee....ah....they were good days ).

So practice does help but on its own probably won't develop all thestyle one would like.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bill

So practice does help but on its own probably won't develop all thestyle one would like.

Coming back to a point I made in a earlier thread ... I think it may be counter-productive to pick a 'style' and then to copy it.

I think there is more milage in watching moves (including the timing, footwork, interpretation) then trying to adapt that to the way that your body works ... otherwise it can look very unnatural .... by way of illustration, can you imagine Nigel A dancing in Dan Baines hip-hop style???

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Bill
We all practice for a while but then as we learn more moves we rarely practice them because there isn't time and when we do dance it's to learn more moves and to dance freestyle.

In terms of moves, I find that unless I spend most of the freestyle practicing any new moves taught, I'll forget them by next week. If I do spend that amount of time practicing, the move tends to end up being done all the time. Striking the right balance is difficult, all the more so because you want to spend the freestyle time having fun, not having to "work" at your dancing!
As to practicing style, the opportunities are even more limited. Since several aspects of style go against the way moves are taught (e.g. first move), it's not very fair to "use" less experienced dancers to practice your style points IMHO.

If anyone was serious about improving then I think finding a aprtner and walking through moves for a couple of hours every week would help improve their range of moves, their confidence and possibly their style. But how many dancers have the time/energy/opportunity to do this ?

Not to mention facilities - I don't have a floor at home I could practice on, or indeed the space.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Stuart M

In terms of moves, I find that unless I spend most of the freestyle practicing any new moves taught, I'll forget them by next week. If I do spend that amount of time practicing, the move tends to end up being done all the time. Striking the right balance is difficult, all the more so because you want to spend the freestyle time having fun, not having to "work" at your dancing!
As to practicing style, the opportunities are even more limited. Since several aspects of style go against the way moves are taught (e.g. first move), it's not very fair to "use" less experienced dancers to practice your style points IMHO.

Not to mention facilities - I don't have a floor at home I could practice on, or indeed the space.

Congratulations on your 100th post Stuart - I take it you decided against interesting in the end?

I disagree a little with your style practice point - there are a number of things which it's perfectly reasonable to try on less experienced dancers, provided it doesn't rely on them doing something different - for example, the shoulder roll thing.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus


by way of illustration, can you imagine Nigel A dancing in Dan Baines hip-hop style???

Oh yes............. :p ........what fun that would be .........Dan to dance as Viktor; Nigel to dance as Dan; Viktor to dance as .... ???

A changing places comp with a difference !!!

Who could you dance as Gus?????

[Gordon J Pownall]

Back to the thread tho' guys,

do you not think that by introducing a definition of 'advanced move' or 'advanced class', it will form an elite of dancers or a clique at venues where certain people may only turn up for the 'advanced' part of the evening.

Back when Iwere a lad (well, beginner), I do remember feeling a little intimidated by those dancers, men and ladies, that seemed to dance with each other, displaying all manner of fantastic moves that I wanted to do but felt unable to.

As a teacher, it always remains in my mind that I have to cater not only for those dancers who are experienced enough for the more complex or technical moves, but for those that are in the intermediate class for the first time.

Most beginners, including myself, felt it daunting moving on to the intermediate class and this is where taxi dancers play a pivotal role in enouraging the beginner and feeding back to the teacher.

You could argue that this warrants the introduction of an advanced class although I personally feel that a good franchisee in Ceroc will take account of the needs of the 'regulars' and offer appropriate workshops that both stimulate and challenge those dancers looking for a little bit more than the intermediate class.

Choice of moves and knowing your class goes a long way to ensure that dancefloor snobbery remains minimal and that the theme adn level of the moves taught, as well as the style and interpretation of the music makes the evening enjoyable and personally rewarding.

I guess it's giving each person in the class, no matter what the level of experience, that sense of achievement at the end of the evening. That feeling that something new has been learnt or something has been added to you as a dancer.

Then again - it's a personal thing....

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gordon J Pownall
~snip: can't be bothered editing - read it yourself~

But if you have a workshop, rather than a class, you are more likley to form those 'elite' groups; only those attending would be in on the advanced moves being tried. At least in a class situation, everyone knows what you are attempting, and you get some freestyle to try and blend the moves into your existing repertoir.
I still think that the idea of having a night, perhaps once a month or so (not on the same night as the regular classes) in the same format, but raised a level would be a good idea.

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Gordon J Pownall
Most beginners, including myself, felt it daunting moving on to the intermediate class and this is where taxi dancers play a pivotal role in enouraging the beginner and feeding back to the teacher.

When I taxied, the pattern with beginners in their first couple of classes was usually A) Do the Beginner's lesson, B) run through the moves for ten minutes with the taxis, C) go home. It was very difficult to persuade them to stick around. Possibly I've missed out B2, which was "See the demo of the intermediate class, go , then C)...
To beginners who stayed around until the intermediate class, I would try to point out that most of the intermediate moves were just elaborations on the basics, which seemed to relax them a bit.

Maybe a little protocol which would help would be to ensure that every intermediate class, contains a move which is related to a basic move. Statistically I'd reckon it's difficult to avoid this anyway!

Originally posted by Gadget
But if you have a workshop, rather than a class, you are more likley to form those 'elite' groups; only those attending would be in on the advanced moves being tried. At least in a class situation, everyone knows what you are attempting, and you get some freestyle to try and blend the moves into your existing repertoir.
[/b]

Good point, Gadget. Maybe another argument for replacing one intermediate move each class with a style tip - it would help "demystify" the Style aspect of dancing, whilst also acting as a bit of a shop window for Style workshops .

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget

But if you have a workshop, rather than a class, you are more likley to form those 'elite' groups; only those attending would be in on the advanced moves being tried.

I understand your point but profoundly disagree. Whether advanced means difficult moves or style points, there are only going to be a handful of people you can actually use them with (because they need to be both interested and capable of doing so), regardless of whether you learn them in a class or a workshop. The difference is that with a workshop you will have a very good idea of who these people are. I also strongly object to the suggestion that just because there are only some people that I will try particular moves with, I am some kind of dancing snob - I will still dance with everyone, but will not confuse or potentially injure them by doing something they're not used to.

I still think that the idea of having a night, perhaps once a month or so (not on the same night as the regular classes) in the same format, but raised a level would be a good idea.

Isn't this just an evening workshop?????

[Gus]

Originally posted by Graham

I understand your point but profoundly disagree. Whether advanced means difficult moves or style points, there are only going to be a handful of people you can actually use them with

Fair comment. I know its difficult to define an 'advanced' move but one that does some to mind is the Accordion Pull Comb Crab (or whatever the heck its called). I've seen it taught about half a dozen times and is you define success as 90% of the punters doing it properly by the end of the class, never succesfully. Thats the type of move I would use for an advanced lesson.

Coming back to an earlier point, would people who have mastered this move and similar be classed as an elite?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
I know its difficult to define an 'advanced' move but one that does some to mind is the Accordion Pull Comb Crab (or whatever the heck its called). I've seen it taught about half a dozen times and is you define success as 90% of the punters doing it properly by the end of the class, never succesfully. Thats the type of move I would use for an advanced lesson.

Now I would teach a yoyo to an advanced class. Complicated moves are just more moves to forget. Learning how and why to do things a particular way is what makes an advanced dancer.
Now how many people would turn up to an advanced class that taught basics - probably very few, if any.

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Graham
Isn't this just an evening workshop?????

{I have only been to a couple of workshops, so these comments may be miles off...}
I think that a 'class' is more relaxed and less focused after the actual teaching bit; the freestyle dancing is where you put into practice the moves learned from the workshop/lesson. There is a lot less of this bit in a workshop. (And so it should be - the workshop is for focusing on a concept, a class is for general improvement)

Originally posted by Gus
Coming back to an earlier point, would people who have mastered this move and similar be classed as an elite?

I think that you can only class someone as an 'elitist' or a 'dance snob' by there actions off the dance floor
- if they only select partners that they know are advanced or dance with all the time.
- if they ever refuse a dance without good reason (esp with a beginner)
- if they tut & jeer at dancers on the floor from the sidelines, or make derogatory comments about another dancers style/ability.

I don't think that I've found anyone dancing in Scotland that matches the criteria above, no matter how advanced they are.
(Or did you mean 'elite' as in above 'advanced' level?)

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Now I would teach a yoyo to an advanced class. Complicated moves are just more moves to forget. Learning how and why to do things a particular way is what makes an advanced dancer.
Now how many people would turn up to an advanced class that taught basics - probably very few, if any.

David

I totaly agree with you, but commercaily I don't think it would work. If I advertised advanced classes which would focus on beginners moves the class size would probably be an integer less than 1.

Back to an earlier conversation, though 80% of experinced dancers would probably greatly benefit from 'going back to basics', I'd bet that few recognise that fact. When I went for coaching with Roger Chin much of it was focused round 'beginner moves' ... and I was amazed (and dismayed) at how much work I need to do on them.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus


the class size would probably be an integer less than 1.

damn you. my computer just tried to work that out and exploded.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


damn you. my computer just tried to work that out and exploded.

Easier way to make computer explode ... just 'upgrade' to Windows Me:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

ALL COMPUTERS ARE EVIL AND MICROSOFT MUST DIE DIE DIE


Sorry ...... having a few 'technology' issues.