Advanced Dancing

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
ALL COMPUTERS ARE EVIL AND MICROSOFT MUST DIE DIE DIE

Now seems like a good time to suggest this maybe?

and instead of your minidisc player for back-up, I have been using that!
Now even available for Windows...

Franck.

[CJ]

Hey guys.

I've got Windows Me and my computer runs fine. I never have any prob

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget

{I have only been to a couple of workshops, so these comments may be miles off...}
I think that a 'class' is more relaxed and less focused after the actual teaching bit; the freestyle dancing is where you put into practice the moves learned from the workshop/lesson. There is a lot less of this bit in a workshop. (And so it should be - the workshop is for focusing on a concept, a class is for general improvement)

I agree that freestyle dancing is where you practise new things. However, workshops are far more effective at teaching you new things properly than the class is, because the teacher can usually spend more time watching each individual and correcting their mistakes. The problem with learning things in a normal ceroc class is that it's very easy to pick something up incorrectly, and then you just reinforce your bad habit when you practise. I have no idea what you're on about with the concept comment.

Originally posted by Gadget
- if they tut & jeer at dancers on the floor from the sidelines.

Are you serious? Have you ever seen anyone doing this?

or make derogatory comments about another dancers style/ability

Personally I see no problem with this: if other people want to slag off my dancing, then it doesn't bother me (assuming they're not doing it over the PA!). After all, it can't be anything worse than I hear from Wendy! ......at least I hope not!!!

[Graham]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


damn you. my computer just tried to work that out and exploded.

Actually there are an infinite number of integers less than one, but only one of these is a possible value for the attendance at a workshop.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Graham
I agree that freestyle dancing is where you practise new things. However, workshops are far more effective at teaching you new things properly than the class is, because the teacher can usually spend more time watching each individual and correcting their mistakes.

Yup ... you ask Franck or amy teacher who runs a Cerocshop, especially the beginners one. Ignoring all other workshops, I think the beginners workshop is the most important things any dancer can do. I chanllenge ANY dancer of this forum to go back and do a beginners cerocshop and not learn something.

As for most worshops, as long as the class size is on the smallers size, it gives the instructor time to look at each individual couple and show the right way. There are some moves where there is no subsitiute for actualy dancing the move through with each of the partners so that they pick up the rythem, positon and subtilties of the move you're trying to teach.

For drop/aerials courses ... you HAVE to teach small numbers, if only from a safety perspective.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Graham
The problem with learning things in a normal ceroc class is that it's very easy to pick something up incorrectly, and then you just reinforce your bad habit when you practice.

Point taken, but if the night is advertised as "Intermediate/Advanced", then I would hope that the attendees would be of sufficient level that they can pick up the moves correctly. (assuming that it is being taught well ) <- sarcasm {just in case}
I would not expect any complex aerials or 'red' moves to be taught here (although I am still hazy as to the line between 'advanced' and 'intermediate').

I have no idea what you're on about with the concept comment.

Concept: Up-close & personal; Dips, leans & seducers; Style workshops; ... a workshop normally is concentrated on a specific concept or area of dancing to improve on. Classes on the other hand tend to involve four moves themed around smaller ideas; different exits to 1st move, left-handed moves, walks,...

Are you serious? Have you ever seen anyone doing this {snear & jeer}?

Not personally, but there have been a couple of postings that enforce the idea that it does happen.

if other people want to slag off my dancing, then it doesn't bother me

Nor does it bother me, but if they are slagging you off to an audience when you're not present, then that's just rude and uncivilized. People can form negative opinions about my dancing by all means, but voice them as view points or opinions - not as derogatory slagging that is solely designed for put-downs or as an attempt to demonstrate superior knowledge of 'correct' and 'incorrect'.

[CJ]

Hi, guys.

was just on forum to put up my playlist for Glasgow last night, but had to tell you...

Some of the moves Graham was doing last night!! Honestly, no idea what he was thinking. Has he been to a class before?

:sorry

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
but if the night is advertised as "Intermediate/Advanced", then I would hope that the attendees would be of sufficient level that they can pick up the moves correctly.

Some people will advertise intermediate workshops as advanced, just because more people will turn up. Then again most of these people would not be able to cope with a proper 'advanced' class.

... if they are slagging you off to an audience when you're not present, then that's just rude and uncivilized. People can form negative opinions about my dancing by all means, but voice them as view points or opinions - not as derogatory slagging that is solely designed for put-downs or as an attempt to demonstrate superior knowledge of 'correct' and 'incorrect'.

There is a difference between criticising people, and slagging them off. I will spend quite a lot of time watching other people at a freestyle. One reason is I'm too lazy to dance to every song. But I also like seeing what other people do, whether I like it or not. I'm always looking for new ideas, or things to avoid doing. (Criticising might be the wrong word, as it implies that I'm trying to find faults in their dancing. I'm not - I'm trying to improve my own dancing by seeing what other people do.)

But if I were to start telling everyone what I thought of a particular dancer, especially if I just highlighted the bad points, then that would be wrong. I don't think I've ever seen this happen, with two exceptions.
- Quite often I will hear ladies saying to avoid a particular man, because he is dangerous.
- If someone teaches or performs, then I don't see anything wrong with talking about their class or cabaret.

And of course there is nothing wrong with saying someone is good.

David

[Graham]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Some of the moves Graham was doing last night!! Honestly, no idea what he was thinking.

Something along the lines of: For *$£%'s sake, what's this @#~& he's playing???????
BTW, doesn't the forum count as a form of public address?

Anyway, back to the topic - I completely agree with David.

[horsey_dude]

Gus,
Not controversial? That dosn't sound like you. You are right about Ceroc in NZ not being very social which is a shame. One of the problems we have is the pubs/clubs don't really want us around. Ceroc people take up a lot of space on the dance floor and don't drink much alcohol (not a good client base from a bar owners point of view).

It could be worse though, when I started the classes were held in a building right next to a strip bar (We are too small to have a red light district so we only have a red light street) and you used to get japanese sailors coming up looking for girls.

Hopefully none of my fellow Kiwi's will see this but basically the further south you go in new zealand the more social and the less skillful the dancers become (on average) so maybe there is a relationship between the two.

As far as becoming an advanced dancer goes, it is really worth it. I have always enjoyed the fun side of Ceroc but it is a very special feeling to dance through a song with someone really good
without missing a beat to a song that you love. There comes a point where you don't think about the next move or have to try to follow the different timings of a song (where the tempo changes or freezes) it all just happens without thought and every move is perfect for the moment in the song.

Those times are amazing and stick in your memory.

p.s. Its even worse when you don't learn anything new in advanced classes either!

The most satisfaction I get is from helping beginner/intermediate people improve so hopefullly there will be more ceroc'ers in future.

[Gus]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Gus,
You are right about Ceroc in NZ not being very social which is a shame

I think I need to clarify what I mean. I'm not saying that Kiwi Cercoers aren't sociable ... far from it, an extremely friendly bunch. What I was trying to say is that the emphasis of the Ceroc clubs is more oin the dance than on the social aspect compared to the UK. I think one factor may be that the venues, from what I've seen of them, are smaller and don't tend to have bars...

Anyway, nice to have another perspective from across the waters ...

[Emma]

Originally posted by DavidB


There are significant differences in the lead in the different styles of dance. WCS is a leverage dance. Jive is all about changing from leverage to compression and back. Hustle is a compression dance.

Umm..I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds interesting - could you expand?

[TheTramp]

I think that he means that in Hustle, you have to sit on your partner.


Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Emma
Umm..I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds interesting - could you expand?

I have no problem expanding. It's dieting I find difficult.

Leverage & Compression

Stand facing your partner holding hands. A neutral position is when there is no tension in the arms. All you might feel is the weight of your partner's hand.
Leverage is when your bodies are pulling away from each other, and the hand grip is holding you together.
Compression is when you are leaning towards each other, and the hand is stopping your partner falling on you.

The compression and leverage can be very light - eg enough to stretch a rubber band. Or it can be quite strong, so that you are supporting a significant part of your partner's weight. In normal dancing it should be fairly light - if you let go then your body should move, but your feet shouldn't have to.

A leverage dance is when the connection is almost always leveraged, and you lead by changing the amount of leverage. For example in West Coast Swing, when doing an underarm turn, there is leverage at the start even while stationary, You increase the leverage to start the lady moving, reduce it as she is moving, and as she finishes the turn, you increase it again to stop her moving. If you danced with a rubber band connecting your hands, it would never go slack. (It doesn't mean that every lead is leveraged - some moves will use compression. It's just for the majority of the dance the connection is in leverage.)

A compression dance is when the connection is usually compressed. This is more unusual - the only one I know of is Hustle. (Hustle developed from Salsa in the US in the '70s, and is usually done to original disco music.) It is a very quick dance, and the lead would get very rough if the man kept pulling the lady forward. So the idea is that the lady always projects forward and tries to move towards her hand. Her forward step is assumed - it doesn't have to be led. The lead then becomes a case of controlling and guiding her momentum.

Ceroc relies on constant changes from compression to leverage. Think about a yoyo. To step back you use compression to move the lady back. To stop her moving, and bring her towards you, you use leverage. To twist her out, you use compression. To twist her back in, you use leverage. To turn her, you use compression, and leverage to stop her. The return is slightly different - you go from leverage to neutral and back to leverage.

All this makes each dance feel very different, especially for the ladies. A West Coast Swing lady would find Ceroc very rough, whereas a Ceroc lady would find a West Coast Swing lead very light.

But - for anyone who likes playing around, try leading Ceroc using just compression or leverage. It gives it a completely different feel, and may just give you some new ideas. (You might want to warn your partner first!)

David

[Emma]

Leverage & Compression
~snip~
~snip~
~snip~
..loads of interesting stuff
~snip~

Many thanks David - I knew you wouldn't let me down!

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by Gus
Having had a week or so of New Zealand Ceroc, its rather got me thinking about previous concersations about int v advanced dancers and whether Ceroc should be for dancing and/or social.

... big snip! ...

Just as a last point, as a teacher doing the Kiwi advanced (and some intermediate) classes ... its been refreshing to be part of a class again finding it hard to do moves, doing them wrong, forgetting the sequence and been corrected by my partner ..... reminds you what its like for people in your class ...

I think, perhaps, you may have indirectly answered your own question here.

In Australia, we also live in awe of the NZ dancers, though we have a fairly similar style: lots of dips and drops, aerials and so forth. In your post, you thought that this meant that we take dancing "more seriously"... but, au contraire, we have immense fun, and the social element of Ceroc is (at least for all those I know) the primary focus.

I think the last paragraph of your post is the true explanation for the "showy" style that predominates down under. There's a great deal of fun in being challenged to your personal limits. The challenging classes offered here make it fun for the advanced dancers, and provide them with a focus for their social interaction.

Live passionately,

[Gus]

Originally posted by Ronde!


I think the last paragraph of your post is the true explanation for the "showy" style that predominates down under. There's a great deal of fun in being challenged to your personal limits. The challenging classes offered here make it fun for the advanced dancers, and provide them with a focus for their social interaction.

Live passionately,

Hmmm ... maybe you can answer me a uestion. I admit that my experience of Aussie dancing is limited ... seen a few instructors at JiveSpree and just got my paws on the Aussie 2002 champs video ... but the thing that struck me was the heavy accent on BIG moves, multiple spins and a minimal amount of musical interpretation. Is that just a competition thing or would you say thats a generic style thing?

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmm ... maybe you can answer me a uestion. I admit that my experience of Aussie dancing is limited ... seen a few instructors at JiveSpree and just got my paws on the Aussie 2002 champs video ... but the thing that struck me was the heavy accent on BIG moves, multiple spins and a minimal amount of musical interpretation. Is that just a competition thing or would you say thats a generic style thing?

I admit that at comp, everyone loves those "showy, crowd pleasing moves." (name that movie!). Competitions here are very much about "putting on a show". However, interpretation is very much a part of that show; when I was tutored for comp, my teachers placed heavy emphasis on interpretation: and elsewhere, I've posted methods for finishing on beat, and interpreting pauses etc. at competition level.

To answer your question: While the general style here by all reports is much "bigger" than in the UK, it's definitely a few notches of intensity down from comp. I personally feel that because Ceroc here competes with a number of other popular dance styles (Ballroom, Street Latin, and Tango mainly) it is distinguished by its showiness, for which it has established a clearly defined market niche for us exhibitionists .

That said, I think the ladies (and most men) prefer more interpretation/feeling and less show off the competition floor, and I think that's reflected in the way the men lead socially. In social dancing, I feel compelled to give my partners an interesting dance (variety and interpretation); and to let my partner shine a little (a little showiness, but mainly to show off the lady's grace than the partnership's prowess).

The basics will always be good eye contact, a smile, and a sense of fun in the dance.

Work may be sending me in your direction within the next year or so. I'd be honoured if I might dance with one of your lovely ladies, and you can judge for yourself.

Live passionately,

[Gary]

Originally posted by Gus


...just got my paws on the Aussie 2002 champs video ... but the thing that struck me was the heavy accent on BIG moves, multiple spins and a minimal amount of musical interpretation. Is that just a competition thing or would you say thats a generic style thing?

Which Aussie 2002 champs? There are two big ones in Sydney, one organised by Ceroc Australia, one organised by Ceroc and Modern Jive. I was pretty disappointed with the Ceroc Australia champs video - they edited out the best (in my opinion) showcases (I'm guessing to stop people stealing moves).

I'm only an intermediate dancer, so take this with a big dash of salt. Multiple spins are a generic style thing here. Most of the better guys and girls do them a lot. Once you get used to them they're no big deal. On BIG moves versus musical interpretation, I'd say it's generally easier to teach and learn big moves than musical interpretation, so probably guys get into those earlier. I'm looking around for models of guys with great musical interpretation around Sydney, and they're kind of few and far between. There are a lot more girls who are very strong with interpretation.

On the other hand maybe I just don't get out and see the interpret-y guys much, or I don't recognise great musical interpetation when I see it (which might explain a lot).

I'll have to get a vid/DVD of some UK champs. Can anyone recommend one? (I was looking at getting the US Swing Open DVD(s), but $US200 is a bit harsh when I've only got Australian pesos).

[Gus]

Originally posted by gcapell

I'll have to get a vid/DVD of some UK champs. Can anyone recommend one? (I was looking at getting the US Swing Open DVD(s), but $US200 is a bit harsh when I've only got Australian pesos).

The two main Competitons are the UK Open Champs (Chance to Dance) and the Ceroc Champs. The UK Champs vid probably has the better performances on it (profesional are allowed to compete, its got an airstep section and its 2 videos long but its expensive, around #40. The Ceroc tape is cheaper (about #17?) but my copy hasn't arrived yet so can't comment on the content.

For links, go to www.modernjive.com.

PS .. thanks for the comments re Aussie dance styles ... interesting.

Just looked ta the tape again ... its actualy the 2001 Ceroc and Modern Jive Champs ... Sydney.