Advanced Dancing

[Gus]

This thread is NOT intended to be controversial ... just interested in others opinions

Having had a week or so of New Zealand Ceroc, its rather got me thinking about previous concersations about int v advanced dancers and whether Ceroc should be for dancing and/or social.

My brief observation about Ceroc down here is that the focus is very much more on the dancing rather than the social. They have beginner, intermediate and advanced lessons and the lessons are llnger, with about 6/8 moves per session. There is a far greater preponderance of drops and they seem overall to take their dancing more seriously ... and that shows in the finished result.

Thinking back to the UK ... the biggest difficuly that advanced dancers is finding other advanced dancers to practice with. For social dancing, no probs ... lots of lovely dancers countrywide ... BUT, if you want to take your dancing seriously, where do you do? There are bno advanced classes, few workshops and at a freestyle event, how many dancers are there that you can do you most complex/interpretative moves to. The ladies have a far harder time of it. My dance partner feels she needs to get down to London and Rock Bottoms to get her 'fix' of good dancers.

Coming back to music, my personal view is (and please feel free to flame me if you think I'm wrong) is that the vast majority of dancers basicaly do moves to the music, whereas only the minority of dancer really interpret the music and DANCE accordingly. This is no more clearer than when a blues or jazz track comes on. The floor can clear leaving just the really experienecd daners making something of what can be a complex beat structure. As a DJ I would love to put on more complex tracks ... e.g. "Talking all that Jazz" ... but I know that 70% of dancers won't enjoy it.

So ... is any of the above making any sense or am I just setting myslef up to be labelled an elitest saddoo ... again.

Just as a last point, as a teacher doing the Kiwi advanced (and some intermediate) classes ... its been refreshing to be part of a class again finding it hard to do moves, doing them wrong, forgetting the sequence and been corrected by my partner ..... reminds you what its like for people in your class ...

[Ash]

You make a lot of sense!

the vast majority of dancers basicaly do moves to the music, whereas only the minority of dancer really interpret the music and DANCE accordingly.

I think most people donÕt really listen to the music. It wouldnÕt matter if the track was latin, pop, swing... At the same time I suppose it doesnÕt matter as whatÕs important is having a good time and enjoying yourself. (Is it more fun here, Gus, than New Zealand?)

But where do you go if you want to push yourself??? There arenÕt many dancers, for example, that you can do complex/interpretative moves with at a typical freestyle night.

You would assume that people would actually DANCE in the advanced competitionsÉbut the musical interpretation is mostly poor and a lot of dancers have set moves they would use regardless of the music. It reminds me of Ice Dance where you see lots of couples dancing through big chunks of the music.

IÕm sure youÕll tell me what you think!!

[flashy]

That's why I do swing - because it's all about musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression . . . that's dancing!! Swing takes longer to grasp, but the end results are far more impressive than modern jive or ceroc. It's an individual thing I suppose. Most swing dancers in the U.K. are at a higher level in my opinion, and take dancing much more seriously (perhaps too much at times). I also find swing very different to lead generally: women really just need a hint- a 'suggestion'- about where you want them to go, unlike jive where they often expect a strong lead. I am glad to read that there are some new swing nights starting up in Edinburgh.

[Jon]

Ceroc isn't ment to be serious, it's surposed to be fun and social. Although I agree wih Gus in that there are beginner and intermediate classes but nothing usually for advanced dancers. Although some of the London venues have started adding in the odd advanced move into the intermediate class. There are lots of workshops around though!

As for finding advanced people to dance with, in certain venues in London just look near the stage, but thats another thread!

And Gus when you say that the dance floor clears when the dj puts Blues songs on I only wish they played them more often as I like the space!

[Gus]

Originally posted by flashy
That's why I do swing - because it's all about musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression . ...but the end results are far more impressive than modern jive or ceroc.

Interesting cvomment ... but having seen the top swing and the top cerocers in the UK I would say niether is better than the other ... just different ways of dancing. Or have you a 'champion' team that you think are better dancers than Viktor and Lydia (not being aggresive .. just an honest question)

[Dreadful Scathe]

I wouldnt agree that the end result of swing dancing is always much better to watch than modern jive.

I'd say theres more jive dancers around but less advanced jive dancers, but thats partly because its much easier to get to a impressive level of jive dancing (having tried lindy hop i can safely say Jive is FAR easier for me)- so theres loads of people at that level and less at the really advanced level. When you do see really advanced jivers though - such as at advanced competition level - they are amazing. Its more a case of numbers doing the dancing and the difficulty level of the style - someone correct me if Im way off the mark here !

[DavidB]

Originally posted by flashy
That's why I do swing - because it's all about musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression . . . that's dancing!! Swing takes longer to grasp, but the end results are far more impressive than modern jive or ceroc. It's an individual thing I suppose. Most swing dancers in the U.K. are at a higher level in my opinion, and take dancing much more seriously (perhaps too much at times). I also find swing very different to lead generally: women really just need a hint- a 'suggestion'- about where you want them to go, unlike jive where they often expect a strong lead.

I don't see any difference between the standard of swing dancing and jive in the UK. The end results are exactly the same - people have fun, they feel good, but they look the same. The beginners look the same, the intermediates look the same, and the advanced dancers look the same. With the exception of Ryan & Jenny, no-one looks world class (ie when someone gets to the same technical and artistic level as the best dancers in the world.)

There may be (as DS suggests) a larger percentage of swing dancers getting to an 'advanced' level compared to jivers. As you say there are more swing dancers take dancing seriously.

Lindy and West Coast Swing are definitely harder dances to learn than jive, simply because they have footwork and a particular style. But every criteria that you consider to make up dancing (musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression) applies just as much to jive as it does to swing.

Whether or not you prefer Lindy, or jive, or WCS is entirely up to you. (I personally prefer WCS to jive.) But none of them have anything unique that makes them a better dance than the others.

I also find swing very different to lead generally: women really just need a hint- a 'suggestion'- about where you want them to go, unlike jive where they often expect a strong lead.

There are significant differences in the lead in the different styles of dance. WCS is a leverage dance. Jive is all about changing from leverage to compression and back. Hustle is a compression dance. (I'm not really sure about Lindy???) But once you understand the differences, then there are a lot of similarities - you need a connection, the lady follows her hand, a small lead can give a big movement etc.

Unfortunately there are a lot of leaders in jive who don't really understand what they are doing.

I am glad to read that there are some new swing nights starting up in Edinburgh.

So am I - as long as people enjoy their dancing, I don't care what style they do.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jon
Ceroc isn't ment to be serious, it's surposed to be fun and social

Not sure that I agree with that statement. There is no doubt that for the majority of dancers, Ceroc is just a gentle dance and a social pastime. However, there are increasing amounts of cerocers who do take it seriously and want to progress.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gus
Coming back to music, my personal view that the vast majority of dancers basicaly do moves to the music, whereas only the minority of dancer really interpret the music and DANCE accordingly

The same move can be performed in many different ways; it is up to the dancers as to how to perform the move and which style fits the music. Is it not part of the dancer's skill to select the style that match the music or the feel of the music? The actual moves don't really come into it.

As someone in another post pointed out, some people are better to dance with to style X, but not as good with style Y - In my opinion, the best dancers are ones who change the style of the moves to flow with the music - not so much the technical aspects or complexities of the moves themselves.
Example: You can look at a couple on the dance floor and think "that looked good", then realise that it was a simple man-spin, but executed with attitude or style that matched the music perfectly.

The point of Ceroc being 'Social' or 'Serious' dancing is also a mute one; I think that the difference seen is more to do with the learning process: the more 'serious' dancers will go over and over a move untill it clicks with them, the 'social' dancers will do the same, spread out over weeks/months instead of with as much focus.
This does result in a slower advancement in skill level, but gives a more relaxed approach to the whole thing, and if a move is not working for a 'social' dancer, they will drop it until they have had a bit more experiance and try it again when somthing reminds them of it.

I am curious as to the difference between 'intermediate' and 'advanced' moves - perhaps once a month(?) there could be a class that did intermediate followed by advanced classes {as opposed to novice/intermediate} where the teaching slots were slightly longer ?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
I am curious as to the difference between 'intermediate' and 'advanced' moves

Very good point. What exactly is an 'advanced' move?

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by DavidB
What exactly is an 'advanced' move?

basically anything I cant do


Similar to the Gardners question of 'what is a weed?' - anything you dont like the look of

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Very good point. What exactly is an 'advanced' move?

I agree, not a very easy distinction to make. Anything beyond your current abilities, or just within reach, might be considered advanced, but then where do you draw a general line.

Using the current Ceroc classification of moves, there are about 24 Beginners moves. All easy enough to be taugh and learnt on a first night.
After that, there are about 430 Intermediate moves! This is where the distinction becomes problematic. Many of the (so-called) intermediate moves are easy enough that they could have been classified as Beginners moves, but we had to select only a few to keep the Beginners class manageable.
Some of the Intermediate moves however are much harder, and require a level of experience over and above the usual, just to get them. Those could be called advanced, but as Gadget points out, one man's tricky move is another's favourite easy move.
The last 50 or so moves, are classified Red / Orange, because they should not be taught in normal classes, either because they are too difficult (or even time-consuming to teach), or because they are not safe to teach in a large class. Those again (mostly lifts / drops / etc...) are also advanced!

This is all moot, because at the end of the day, you can make the most basic of Beginners moves as advanced as you like by adding style, footwork, etc... to it!

Franck.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Gus


Not sure that I agree with that statement. There is no doubt that for the majority of dancers, Ceroc is just a gentle dance and a social pastime. However, there are increasing amounts of cerocers who do take it seriously and want to progress.

Personally I think it would be wrong to reduce the social aspect of ceroc and replace it with "something more serious". For me the whole thing about ceroc is that it's a (relatively) easy dance that I can do in a number of places around the country and gives me an opportunity to go out and meet people. I think that's the real strength of ceroc and we shouldn't loose sight of that. At the same time I would also say that I belong to the "cerocers who do take it seriously and want to progress" but absolutely NOT at the expense of loosing the social/relaxed feel to it. I'll try style tips and playing with different styles of dancing to do this..

As many of you know I started out in Ballroom and I was fortunate enough to find a school with a ceroc mentality - they would teach you to get up on a floor, dance and sit down again. If you wanted more you could find it, but that was pretty much the empasis of the class - pretty much as ceroc is. Then when I went to Uni I joined the Ballroom team. BIG mistake. Insted of being encouraged to get up and give it a go I'd be coched for an hour not to hold my thumb at a 45degree angle, it should be vertical. I gave it up and didn't dance for two years. So as an old wisened voice of experience ( ) I'd say that maybe the occasional advanced workshop should be there for people who really want to take their dancing in that direction (I was going to say up a level, but I don't think that's true) but on the whole I think ceroc should leave its emphasis where it is - enjoy the dance!

There, that was my tuppenceworth!

Jayne

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jayne
Personally I think it would be wrong to reduce the social aspect of ceroc and replace it with "something more serious".

I enjoy the more technical and serious side of dancing, but I hope nobody thinks that I would want to reduce the social side, just to make it more serious. There is no point in learning how to dance better if there is no-one to dance with!

Then when I went to Uni I joined the Ballroom team. BIG mistake. Insted of being encouraged to get up and give it a go I'd be coched for an hour not to hold my thumb at a 45degree angle, it should be vertical.

I was on the Ballroom team for 3 years. I learnt a lot, had a great time, met Lily, but didn't learn to dance. But now I find that the little bits that I can remember are very useful, and I wish I had the time and the money to get some more lessons.

I don't think advanced classes should be a part of a normal class night. But there may be enough demand for something more than the occasional workshop.

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
There is no point in learning how to dance better if there is no-one to dance with!

Really? Should it matter just how advanced your partner is? Just because they are less experienced or not as good a dancer as you, does this mean that you don't dance as well? Do you lower your game?

I admit that jumps, dips etc. cannot be done with people who are beginners and have no idea of what to expect, but once a person loses the 'beginner' status, they should be able to follow any well executed move. Does the quality of your partner's dancing really make any difference to the quality of yours?

(I suspect that advanced followers actually do have to play down their level for the less advanced leaders and do occasionally look for better dancers in order to get a chance to be led into advanced moves.YesNo?)

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
Does the quality of your partner's dancing really make any difference to the quality of yours?

(I suspect that advanced followers actually do have to play down their level for the less advanced leaders and do occasionally look for better dancers in order to get a chance to be led into advanced moves.YesNo?)

The answer to the first part is clearly yes ! Just look at what happens at Lucky Dip comps when an experienced dancer gets a less experienced dancer. It may not always affect the 'quality' of the dancer but someone who doesn't follow that well can break the rhythm of a song or miss beats and so the moves attempted and style may alter.

Equally a good woman may find it difficult to maintain a level of 'quality' if her partner is not leading or dancing off the pace while she expects to be led on the beat difficult to lok good if you are being hauled round doing moves that are not being led well !

Not sure about the second question.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
Really? Should it matter just how advanced your partner is? Just because they are less experienced or not as good a dancer as you, does this mean that you don't dance as well? Do you lower your game?

I meant that if you take away the social side of Ceroc, you could end up with something similar to the competitive side of Ballroom, where a large number of people only dance with their partners. If you went by yourself, there would literally be 'no-one' to dance with.

But is is a good question. I think the answer is yes - I will dance differently depending on the lady. At its extreme I wouldn't lead a beginner into breaks, and I wouldn't dance with a teacher doing nothing but first moves and yoyos. It has nothing to do with how I compare to them.

The only assumption I make when I ask someone to dance is that they can keep time. (And even if they can't I will still try to dance). Everything else I try to find out - can they follow basic moves, more advanced moves, variations they probably haven't seen before? Do they like spinning, or improvising? Do they like a light lead, or do I need to supply more energy than I'm used to? Do they listen to the music themselves? Do they notice if I do or don't? Do they do anything unusual?

It takes at least half a song to get a rough idea of what to do. I find I get into trouble as soon as I make any other assumptions.

I hope it doesn't affect the quality of my dancing, just the variety. (My dancing is not good enough to be able to lower the quality!)

David

[Jon]

I agree with everything DavidB just said but I find my style most definately changes depending on who I'm dancing with.

I can't really put it into words but I think theres a comfort factor in there as well. So if I'm dancing with someone I know well then I'm relaxed and my style reflects this in the moves that I do i.e. making moves longer, interpreting the music more and just looking relaxed. But with a beginner or someone I haven't danced with before I'll probably just stick to beginner/easy intermediate ceroc moves with none or very little personal style until I get used to my partner.