Finding your Feet

[Tiggerbabe]

posted by Gadget

there

:reallymad HEATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Heather]

It looks like I'm going to have to teach you grammar now, as well as spelling!!!
No wonder people complain about the appalling standard of literacy in this country!!!!!!!!!
Don't worry, help is at hand, I'll bring you a few 'there and their ' worksheets on Saturday. If all else fails, Sheena and I will just roll them up and smack you with them. (Lucky you!!!! )

Heather

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Heather
~snip~I'll bring you a few 'there and their ' worksheets on Saturday.

Won't help - I always get their and there mixed up; have done since someone told me there was more than one way to spell their "there"'s.
Just imagine it's correct.

[Emma]

Originally posted by Heather
I'll bring you a few 'there and their ' worksheets on Saturday.

You could have a forum corner, and a spelling and grammar corner.

[Dreadful Scathe]

gadget: just type what you want to post into the box at http://babelfish.av.com , translate it into french and then post - you can blame the translater then - as non french speakers will have to visit the same site to decipher it

[Graham]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
gadget: just type what you want to post into the box at http://babelfish.av.com , translate it into french and then post - you can blame the translater then - as non french speakers will have to visit the same site to decipher it

TRANSLATOR!
Wouldn't do him much good - enough people on the forum who could spot his mistakes in French as well. Especially since his spelling would probably confuse babelfish!

[TheTramp]

Getting this thread (finding your feet) back on track....

They're at the bottom of your legs. Look down.

Unless you're built like me, in which case, I suggest finding a mirror.

Steve

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget

My point was that in Dancing Ceroc, the feet are primarily there to make sure that you don't fall over; it doesnÕt actually matter where your feet are, how they got there or where they are pointing. As long as you can keep balance and lead the moves properly you will do OK. Actual 'footwork' improves balance, posture, style, positioning and makes the leading/following of moves easier.

Don't agree Gadget................. yes footwork is not vital when you start although as Franck points out even with the basics men only have to step back and in - so some very basic footwork.

However, some men when they start don't even move their feet that much so makes it very difficult for the women to complete some moves - or they end up running round the man


Moving the feet will transfer weight and balance and so make moves look smoother and shoudl allow the man to lead more effectively. As I said earlier - someone like Nigel is so good because of his footwork but it's so smooth that you can actually miss what he's done until you try a move and it doesn't work


Although the focus of Ceroc appears to be hands and arms - so don't look at the feet ! - the feet are equally vital even if it's not so intricate as Salsa or tango or ballroom. Which is why so many people love it so much !

[Rachel]

I feel rather unqualified to post a reply on this, in the light of all the other expert dancers here, but I very much wanted to agree with Bill and Franck's comments.

Ceroc may sometimes look to be all arms, but I think that you won't get anywhere if you try to dance it from the top down and don't use your feet to position yourself correctly and maintain the correct balance and tension between yourself and your partner (as Lou was saying).

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a quite a few men go from one extreme to the other when starting Ceroc - from not really moving their feet at all to feeling more comfortable with the arm movements and thinking, oops, I'd better move around a bit. So they then develop a quite bouncy style with steps all over the place. And, even as a woman, I have to admit that I probably did the same. I'm still working very hard on trying to get my feet right - being smoother, not taking too many extra steps, etc.

David and Nigel (in my opinion two of the best male dancers I've seen) are wonderful examples of the 'less is more' concept when it comes to footwork. What often feels really nice for me is when my partner almost just slides his feet forward and back, from one side to another - and that's it, not picking up his feet too much, not taking lots of intricate steps ...

That's all that's really needed to make a great (Ceroc-type) dance - complicated footwork is not essential, although your feet (and balance) must be in the right place in order for the rest of your body to look right.

Those beginners who don't move their feet often seem to drag the ladies into position by leading from the shoulders and upper arms. And it feels so good when they learn to just step into the right place and have their shoulders relaxed. Then you can get all the tension you need to lead the lady from just the fingers and palm of the hand, without having to use most of your body weight to pull her around.

I've just read David's brilliant post on leverage and compression - he gave the analogy of an elastic band ... I was thinking of when I was being towed in the car the other day - one of those stretchy tow-ropes that you can't over-stretch or allow to go slack. That's what I think of now when I think about Ceroc tension!

Anyway, this is all personal opinion, and I'm sure many people will disagree, but it's just what I think feels nicest when I'm being lead in a dance.
Rachel

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Bill
However, some men when they start don't even move their feet that much so makes it very difficult for the women to complete some moves - or they end up running round the man

I have been known, when I'm very tired, to do an entire dance without moving my feet... (I know - I'm sad and lazy!)
In the interests of equality, I've also tried to dance with the lady not moving her feet. So instead of her turning, I would move around her. First moves & yoyos work fine, but I can't do any behind the back moves, eg pretzel. It really messes up your brain!

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
Don't agree Gadget.................

Yes you do - you your post just confirmed it !

yes footwork is not vital when you start although as Franck points out even with the basics men only have to step back and in - so some very basic footwork.

It's not vital when you start, or as you continue past 'beginner' status - it's only vital if you want to improve your style or positioning on the dance floor.
{And stepping in-out is not what I would call "basic footwork"; it's just keeping your feet under you as you move back and forth}

~snip~ or they end up running round the man

Only if they lead it too fast. As DavidB said it's not only the men who can dance glued to the spot; I have danced with one or two beginners that refused to budge - ended up dancing around them like a morrice dancer around a maypole.

~snip~someone like Nigel is so good because of his footwork...

And as several have pointed out, the best Ceroc dancers seem to have amazing footwork - but I repeat: Footwork is not vital to be able to dance Ceroc - it is only vital if you want to be able to dance Ceroc with style and grace.

Perhaps my definition of 'footwork' differs from yours; to me, footwork is the deliberate practice and focus on developing where and how you place your feet and your body's position over them. It is how your feet move from point A to point B, and the distribution of weight on them. I think that this develops naturally, without thinking about it, as you advance; but to improve and develop particular footwork then you need to focus on/be aware of these points and then practice so that the movement and positioning become physical instinct.
{way too much effort for me }

Originally posted by Rachel
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a quite a few men go from one extreme to the other when starting Ceroc - from not really moving their feet at all to feeling more comfortable with the arm movements and thinking, oops, I'd better move around a bit

Stages of evolution for a Ceroc dancer; Static - Wild - Natural - Smooth - Nigel {just because bill mentioned him}
I agree, but I think that the wild -> natural is more about distance than taking less steps; not as big steps backwards and less traveling on returns. Confidence plays a big role as well; you don't need to propel yourself or your partner miles to dance.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB
I've also tried to dance with the lady not moving her feet. So instead of her turning, I would move around her. First moves & yoyos work fine, but I can't do any behind the back moves, eg pretzel. It really messes up your brain!

David

Socrates - you're an inspiration!

So David, I assume that you agree with the point I made earlier in this thread then???

Re Waltz - lead & I'll follow but I doubt there'll be much waltzing music at a ceroc night (see other threads...) Rhumba - ceroc has screwed up my timing on the turns but I'll get it sussed. Foxtrot - look on it this way, if my feet get trampled on too much your ear will hurt from the yelping I'll be doing!!! Are we on then?

Jayne

[Bill]

[quote]Originally posted by Gadget
[b]
{And stepping in-out is not what I would call "basic footwork"; it's just keeping your feet under you as you move back and forth}


And as several have pointed out, the best Ceroc dancers seem to have amazing footwork - but I repeat: Footwork is not vital to be able to dance Ceroc - it is only vital if you want to be able to dance Ceroc with style and grace.



Still disagree with this gadget ! Stepping back and in - however limited is still ( basic) footwork and a number of men don't always even do this. The result is that their partners are usually hauled round them and thrown about.

OK so it's not very technical or very demanding but lest we all forget what it was like during those first few frightening weeks..most of us men probably did the same. Too busy thinking of the arms and the moves to worry about actually moving our feet as well :sorry

Even though it is simple, stepping back and in or to the side is important to complete moves effectively and provide space for your partner. And you do have to think very clearly where your feet are - and where they are about to go so you can prepare properly. Failure to do so, as I said, means making the woman work even harder - and possibly means he and she will end up banging into other dancers ! And on that note it's just struck me why some men have no sense of space - they're not thinking of where or how they are moving with the result that he charges into other dancers and creates havoc :reallymad

Footwork can add style but as others are saying, some of the best dancers around don't do a great deal more and it's not just planting your feet under your body but positioning your feet in preparation for the move and leading the woman to where you want her to go.

I was pretty much a 'bouncy' dancer for ages and only when I saw myself and then saw good dancers did I realise how it could be done. I still like to jump about sometimes but having seen Viktor I know how I'd like to dance ( if only :sorry ).

And the elastic band anaolgy is a good one and it's how I often try to demonstrate the tension required when dancing on the nights I'm on duty.

Having read the above you'd almost believe I knew what I was talking about

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
Still disagree with this gadget ! Stepping back and in - however limited is still ( basic) footwork and a number of men don't always even do this. The result is that their partners are usually hauled round them and thrown about.

That's only because they don't listen to teacher {}

... stepping back and in or to the side is important to complete moves effectively and provide space for your partner.

...and is one of the transitional keystones when leaving the "beginner" status behind you.
I still say that stepping in/out/side is not footwork unless you consciously work at the style, movement and placement of your feet. Otherwise, you are just re-positioning your body and letting your feet move underneath you to stop you from falling over (ie maintaining balance).
A Side-to-Side or First-Move contain basic footwork; you can't actually do the move(s) without being aware of where your feet are and what they are doing!

Footwork can add style but as others are saying, some of the best dancers around don't do a great deal more and it's not just planting your feet under your body but positioning your feet in preparation for the move and leading the woman to where you want her to go.

Anticipation, expectation and observation: knowing how your partner should react and move - knowing what position you need to be in to execute the next move (or what moves you can execute from the end position): It's the key to what makes good dancers 'great' {or BTC}.
But it's not footwork.
Moving your body into the ideal position to correctly read your partner's movements and anticipate your own could be done by just moving your feet under you. This will result in a great dance for the couple and will look very smooth, but there is no style in it. Footwork makes it easier to position yourself into the 'ideal' position and easier to lead the following move, but is not necessary to know the "designated" footwork for a move in order that you can dance it.

Having read the above you'd almost believe I knew what I was talking about

I can talk all I like, but in practice it sometimes feels like I'm dancing with flippers on! Tangent I know, but that would make an interesting comp category.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget



I can talk all I like, but in practice it sometimes feels like I'm dancing with flippers on! Tangent I know, but that would make an interesting comp category.

There is one. At Chance 2 Dance in March theres a 'best costume' catagory - flippers could be part of a prize winning ensemble lol

hmm Flippers could actually improve my dancing

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
... I'm dancing with flippers on! ...

At Monster Jive Cocktail (great annual event in Surrey) after the cabaret all the teachers were invited back on the floor for a dance. They didn't tell us they would be handing out flippers. I can remember the Lindy teachers doing a pretty good Charleston with them on...

Anyway I get told off now if I call them flippers - apparently I should call them fins.

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

Surely Fins are the bits at the top of fish* (technical term there) and therefore only emulated if you stick a large pointy shaped thing to your back.











*And people from Finland

[Graham]

Okay, better men have already apparently failed to convice him of the error of his ways, but Gadget's refusal to back down is irritating me to the extent that I now feel compelled to have a go too.

Where to start?...... well, let's start at the very beginning (or beginners, anyway). Stepping in/out/sideways IS footwork. What else would you call it? Clearly it is simple footwork, but it is still movement of the feet. And it is completely possible to lead most of the beginner moves which don't involve a switch of position without moving your feet at all. For example First Move, Lady Spin, Wurlitzer, Yoyo, Catapult, Basket, Armjive. I'll be delighted to demonstrate this with you at the party should you wish.

Moving your feet under you IS footwork!! If you look at someone like Victor, he's not tapdancing! In fact you can hardly see his feet moving at all - he is shifting his weight and positioning his feet/body in such a way as to appear as if he's gliding.

In summary, I really don't understand the distinction you're drawing between footwork and foot movement. To my mind they're the same. There is however a continuum from no footwork at all, through simple footwork (the norm in ceroc), to elaborate footwork which needs to be specially learned.

[Jon]

Totally agree with you Graham and Gadget is irritating me to.

Any movement of the feet is footwork. Yes some moves have a specific pattern but Ceroc is more about interpreting the music and doing whatever feels natural to you, that includes moving the feet and the rest of your body. Thats what makes someone look stylish. You watch Victor or Nigel dance and it's not just the feet that makes them look good they put attitude into their dancing using their whole body.