Finding your Feet

[DavidB]

I agree with Gadget (and not just because he's backed me to win the flipper dancing competition.)

When footwork is taught in other dances, you learn two things. Initially you just learn which foot to move when. Eventually you learn how to move your feet, and you realise how important it is.

In Ceroc you don't usually get taught which foot to move. You just get told where to move your body, and you let your feet do what comes naturally. There is nothing wrong with this. It is a brilliantly simple way of making dancing easier to learn. Unfortunately as you improve, you are never taught how to move your feet. Very few people can move their feet (and their body)stylishly without being told what to do. And even when you are taught what to do, most people find it difficult to learn.

It all depends what you call footwork. For me the 'work' is important, as it implies you are doing something active with your feet. If Ceroc doesn't teach 'where', 'when' or 'how' you move your feet, then you aren't doing anything active with them. Just moving your feet under your body is what they do naturally.

If you define footwork as any time your feet move, then every dance has footwork (except my stationary jive!)

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

I think this whole argument is because jive has no specific footwork. If someone was to ask me what salsa footwork was like i could show them, but if they asked for a jive footwork demo i could only show them my version of it..which is not something i could ever describe, only show . So I can see what Gadget is getting at but just because footwork isnt taught as such you still end up doing it. Everyone has a distinct enough style that their footwork becomes their own - up to a point. Some people do dance very simple forward/back/sidestep footwork and some are bouncier - those two types probably are the base for a lot of dancers - the rest have a style all their own with probably not much commonality . Of course, the more you dance the more bad/good style points you pick up to make your footwork more and more unique.

Is there a lynch mob with size 10+ feet waiting for Gadget on Saturday (take THIS footwork Gadget)?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Is there a lynch mob with size 10+ feet waiting for Gadget on Saturday (take THIS footwork Gadget)?

Hope not
I'm going to Gus's workshops, so I'm sure to be shown/picked up on a few 'footwork' tips. {...as to whether they stick or not... that's a different story}

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
My point exactly - you don't need your feet to be placed HERE and HERE on THIS beat for the moves to work!

I think we are all arguing the same point: good footwork = good dancer.

Emmmmmmmmmmmmm.............well maybe not. At the risk of being pedantic - it can also depend on how you define 'good'.

And on the first point - surely you have seen men who don't move their feet so the moves don't work ( just ask some of the women ! ). It takes a conscious effort to move your feet - you can move your body eg sway, but your feet can stay where they are. You can stand still and complete moves but your body might look as if it's moving.

Even the most basic of footwork will enhance moves and indicate to the woman where she should go. More 'stylish' and intricate footwork may make the dancer look better but too much footwork can sometimes be almost as bad as none at all.

As for moving feet on a particular beat........ well there's no strict order of moves obviously but if the fet don't move on a beat then the dance will be out of time to the music !

Perhaps the reason you don't see stepping back and forth or side to side as footwork is because it's now instinctive and you don't reallyhave to think about what you are doing.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
At the risk of being pedantic - it can also depend on how you define 'good'.

Aww, let's be picky - why not ?
I define "good" as: Anyone who is better than me. {...actually I have no idea how to judge how good I am, so it's more 'anyone who I think looks good on the dance floor': Never mind the moves or technical aspects; it's interpretation, style and the connection between the dancers that I find enjoyable to watch, be it in newbies or advanced dancers.}

And on the first point~snip~

Agreed. (isn't that what I was saying ??)

As for moving feet on a particular beat........ well there's no strict order of moves obviously but if the feet don't move on a beat then the dance will be out of time to the music !

Not necessarily true; static poses, moving over two beats or a half beat are some basic examples. But your feet don't have to move on the beat, as long as the moves do.
{Another point of debate perhaps ?}

Perhaps the reason you don't see stepping back and forth or side to side as footwork is because it's now instinctive and you don't really have to think about what you are doing.

It's been instinctive since I gave up crawling! (and I don't mean back from the pub ) That's my point - it's not footwork if you haven't developed it to be a better dancer. By "developed" I mean improved either by experience or consciously practiced positioning and placement of your feet for various moves.

To quote DavidB: There is nothing wrong with this. It is a brilliantly simple way of making dancing easier to learn. - a statement I wholey concur with, but it's not just easy to learn; it's easy to adapt to your own sense of style.
Everyone who dances Ceroc has a unique style and still is able to dance with any partner - I believe that the main reason for this is because of the 'lack of taught footwork' thing.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget
That's my point - it's not footwork if you haven't developed it to be a better dancer. By "developed" I mean improved either by experience or consciously practiced positioning and placement of your feet for various moves.

So it's impossible to have natural footwork, then? I take it that someone invented the concept of dance back in the stone age and then decided that moving your feet in a particular way would be an interesting thing to put in?
I was thinking about this after I'd posted last night, and I was thinking that the way you develop your footwork is by consciously thinking/practising doing something with your feet when normally your movements would be subconscious. However, after you have practised it enough, it will again become subconscious (unless it's extremely intricate) until you decide to develop it further or in a different way.
I assume that this has in fact happened to you in the past, unless of course you still walk like a two-year-old. To re-iterate, I do not see any reason to differentiate between simple/unpractised footwork and footwork you went on a workshop to learn. It's like painting - you have brushwork whether you are Rembrandt or a 4-year-old with his first set of poster paints (or even a decorator with a tin of Dulux!).

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget

That's my point - it's not footwork if you haven't developed it to be a better dancer.

I certainly agree with Graham on this - 'footwork' is where you move your feet during dance - nothing more, nothing less. The 'developing' idea doesnt make sense to me - everyone has developed dance footwork by merit of the fact that they dance in the first place (even their first step at their first class) - and I would even suggest that people firmly rooted to the spot whilst jiving would still be doing footwork because they choose to stand still.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Graham
So it's impossible to have natural footwork, then?

It is not impossible, just difficult. For me the problem is thinking about something that I usually do subconsciously. Ask me to walk in a straight line, and I can. But ask me to walk along a balance beam, and I will fall off. Or ask me to walk to a particular timing, and I make it look anything but natural.

I was thinking that the way you develop your footwork is by consciously thinking/practising doing something with your feet when normally your movements would be subconscious. However, after you have practised it enough, it will again become subconscious (unless it's extremely intricate) until you decide to develop it further or in a different way.

I agree. Anyone who gets to this stage is definitely doing footwork. We just disagree on whether a beginner who is just trying to get through the move is doing 'footwork' or not. Graham, Jon and DS say he is, Gadget (and myself) say he isn't. It doesn't really matter as long as that beginner enjoys what he is doing.

Originally posted by Graham
'footwork' is where you move your feet during dance - nothing more, nothing less.

And to me footwork has nothing to do with 'where' I move my feet, or even 'when'. It is all about 'how' and 'why'.

There isn't a single set way of doing Ceroc. There are plenty of different ways that work, and several that don't work. If we all did the same thing, it would be boring, and the ladies would start describing Chocolate as 'better than dancing'. So hopefully we will continue to disagree.

David

[dougmeister]

"the way you develop your footwork"

Stewart. Your right, foot work isn't taught... but is important!!!!

Watching the stage and whoever is taking the class, U realise (Wed's Glasgow) Roy's comb's have nothing to do with it. . . but he always puts the right foot forward, if you know what I mean.


Keep on cerocing man!!!


PS. Franck's a star man....but give ground control on the music if you know wht a mean.....major tom...............................!!!! ...


[b][quote][SIZE=3[b][i][u]

[Graham]

Originally posted by DavidB
There isn't a single set way of doing Ceroc. There are plenty of different ways that work, and several that don't work. If we all did the same thing, it would be boring, and the ladies would start describing Chocolate as 'better than dancing'. So hopefully we will continue to disagree.

Having found myself in the somewhat unusual position of apparently disagreeing with DavidB, he has, in his usual sage manner, managed to reconcile our points of view and I agree with this latest post.

I even thought I was going to have to correct what I had previously said ('footwork' is where you move your feet during dance - nothing more, nothing less) until I realised that there was an incorrect attribution on David's post and that it was actually DS who said this (my correction would have been that it's also when and how).

So no need to take it outside after all. Unless Gadget wants to disagree again

[TheTramp]

and the ladies would start describing Chocolate as 'better than dancing'

Don't they anyway? I can't imagine any of the ladies I know giving anything better marks than chocolate.

Of course, the ideal solution is munching on some chocolate while you're dancing I guess!!

Steve

[LilyB]

Originally posted by TheTramp

..... I can't imagine any of the ladies I know giving anything better marks than chocolate.

Steve

Lest you forget, it is the ladies who have awarded the accolade "BTC" to a certain young man from Aberdeen whom I had the considerable pleasure of ONE dance with last night. Suffice to say, one dance was all I needed to confirm that accolade. I would have wished for more but I cannot be greedy in the face of huge competition from all his other Scottish lassies!!! Besides, DavidB just might trade me in for some of those lovely Scottish lassies he spent much of the evening dancing with, so I have to forgo anymore thoughts of "chocolate"

LilyB

[TheTramp]

I don't think there's much danger of David trading you in.

And if there was, I'm sure that there would be a huge queue just waiting at your door....

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Bill
surely you have seen men who don't move their feet so the moves don't work

Having said that - if all the men at the party on Saturday were doing this 'advanced' footwork, there might have been room to dance.

I tried my best, but one statue in the midst of that maelstrom didn't stand a chance.

David (the lazy one)

[TheTramp]

Oh, come on David.

I thought we had a very nice dance. Quite surprising the way some space opened up on the dancefloor.

Though, I suppose that anyone in their right minds would have gotten out of the way of you and I!!!

Steve

[Bill]

Originally posted by LilyB
Lest you forget, it is the ladies who have awarded the accolade "BTC" to a certain young man from Aberdeen whom I had the considerable pleasure of ONE dance with last night.
LilyB

And it's unfortunate that it had to be to such a difficult song.and with so little room to move.

It was a very real pleasure not just to meet you Lilly - and David- but to have a dance and if you hadn't been so much in demand I'd have asked for another ! . And I have to apologise to one of my partner's as I ignored her while watching the two of you dance later in the evening:sorry

And special thanks for the compliment - 'young' Can't wait to meet up with the two of you again - and to watch you dance again. Thanks for the treat

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Of course, the ideal solution is munching on some chocolate while you're dancing I guess!!

Ahhhh - so that was the idea at the workshops then...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by DavidB


And to me footwork has nothing to do with 'where' I move my feet, or even 'when'. It is all about 'how' and 'why'.

The 'where' is still most important I think - the 'how' and 'why' and 'when' get better with more experience. 'where' is the concsious choice of moving your feet (or not) in the first place so everything hinges on that - thats what I meant. Any movement (or again, lack of movement) is 'footwork'. I think we are talking more about moving feet being a consious decision or not, but if you were a 'natural' dancer who had been dancing since age of 3 or so - i doubt if you would think about where your feet were - but your 'footwork' would be the envy of all. Not that I know anyone like that . Anyone see what Im getting at ?

[dougmeister]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


The 'where' is still most important I think - the 'how' and 'why' and 'when' get better with more experience.

Completely agree with you on this one. You don't think about your feet, they just start dancing for you and the more you dance the better it becomes.

Watching the really good dancers at the Ten Year Bash was excellent.


Keep on Cerocing man!!!

PS. I never saw any chocolate been eaten while couples danced.

[TheTramp]

That's possibly because you have BTC up