Finding your Feet

[Stuart M]

I've been thinking - no,honestly - and one topic that's not been discussed much is how we move our feet, particularly us guys. One of the good/bad things (bear with me) about Ceroc is that footwork isn't really taught much in the regular classes - I never learned anything really about footwork until I did a style workshop.

I feel that a lot of people's style preference comes from how they prefer to move their feet. I've been fighting my instincts recently - and watched the men's legs when I've sat out dances instead of the fairer sex's - and a lot of the style seems to be "built up" from how gents move their feet. For example, watching blues style dancers, they tend to "slide" a lot more (e.g. Bill), whilst club stylers bounce around a bit. Those who step in a more precise fashion end up looking more ballroom or salsa, I think (Ian in Glasgow definitely falls into this category).

So, the questions are,

a) How did you "find your feet" when learning?
b) is that lack of footwork coaching a major source of diverse styling in modern jive, or is it a hindrance?
c) How closely do you think footwork and style are related?

Worth discussing?

[Will]

Stuart,

The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot. It doesn't matter so much in ceroc, but if you try other dance styles (i.e. Salsa, Tango) you'll find that more often than not they move there left leg first, so it is a good habit to get into.

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Will
Stuart,

The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot. It doesn't matter so much in ceroc, but if you try other dance styles (i.e. Salsa, Tango) you'll find that more often than not they move there left leg first, so it is a good habit to get into.

No offence meant, Will - but I do know all this, which is why the thread's not in the Beginners section. By footwork I meant things like cross-stepping, triple stepping, and the like.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Will
The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot.

Actually - that's really interesting, 'cos in leroc , men are taught to step back on the right foot....

[Gus]

Originally posted by Will
Stuart,

The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot.

Why?? In the Club Jive style we step back on whatever foot to present the body at the desired angle to your partner ... sometimes you'll want to face, sometimes twist away, other times you'll want your back to her ... so I'm not sure that a prescriptive 'stepback' is usefull.

As for Stuart's comments .... I think for a clubby style there doesn't neccesairly have to be bouncing .... personaly I like the hip-hop version of kick/ball-change and lunging into positions .... how you describe that in precise footwork terms I dunno ... when you see what we do at the weekend maybe you'll be able to tell me

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Gus
.... I think for a clubby style there doesn't neccesairly have to be bouncing .... personaly I like the hip-hop version of kick/ball-change and lunging into positions .... how you describe that in precise footwork terms I dunno ... when you see what we do at the weekend maybe you'll be able to tell me

I agree bouncy steps doesn't necessarily equate to a clubby style, it's just a tendency I noted.

What I'm wondering is whether people found they started developing style as a result of improving their footwork, or - vice versa - did their footwork improve as a result of developing style?
And is the lack of early footwork training related to the wide variety of styling one can achieve?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Stuart M
a) How did you "find your feet" when learning?

I had done a little bit of ballroom first. I found it a nice change not to have to worry about it when I was a beginner. Now I wish I could remember my ballroom...

b) is that lack of footwork coaching a major source of diverse styling in modern jive, or is it a hindrance?

A bit of both. Having no set footwork should mean that there is a lot of scope for styling. Unfortunately it makes a lot of dancers think they don't have to worry about their feet at all, and they look untidy. Feet are like hands in that you notice them when they do something odd, but they become 'invisible' when you do things right.

c) How closely do you think footwork and style are related?

For some styles - very closely. The more you tend to move your feet, the more you need to think about how you do it. Footwork is not just about your feet - it's how you use your legs to move your body. So the footwork for the ladies is more important. Men can get away with hardly moving.

Originally posted by Will/Stuart/Lou/Gus
...Left or right...

I don't know which foot I step on in Jive. I try to move my body, and let my feet move if they need to. But when I have to move my feet, I try to do what I used to be taught.

(All this assumes you are interested enough in how you look to do something about it. If you are just out to have fun, you are probably more interested in how it feels.)

David

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB

So the footwork for the ladies is more important. Men can get away with hardly moving.

David

Sorry David - I disagree. Just because some guys don't move their feet it doesn't mean that it's a good dance style. I'm talking about the small minority of male dancers who think that everything comes from the girl and they literally don't move their feet. REALLY annoys me. (Can you tell??)
:steam coming out ears:

I think that it's great that to start with there's little (no) emphasis on footwork - it means that it's easier to learn and you spend more time looking at your partner. (although having come from a ballroom background I REALLY struggled with this concept to start with - now I struggle to learn moves from the feet in other dance styles... )

From experience I've found that learning to relax is the most important thing - learn to relax and everything else follows, both in terms of moving your feet and being able to pick up style points. I'm not suggesting that being relaxed is easy - it took me six years of dancing to relax!!!

don't know if this has been any help stuart??

BTW David - if there's *any* chance you could remember any ballroom steps I've *love* to do some again. Lead and I'll follow... catch you saturday??

Jayne

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jayne
Just because some guys don't move their feet it doesn't mean that it's a good dance style.

I've always preferred the style of swing dancing where the man moves very little, and the lady moves around him (think of a bicycle wheel - the man is the axle, and the lady moves along the spokes.) It suits me because I'm just under 17st, and if I start moving around, I could really do the lady some damage. That doesn't mean I dont use my feet - I just take small steps.
I also think ladies look far better than men when they move, so I emphasise showing her movement, not mine.

BTW David - if there's any chance you could remember any ballroom steps I've love to do some again. Lead and I'll follow...

I can just about remember a basic waltz and rumba. If you want to do a foxtrot, I would suggest a pair of steel toe-capped dance shoes...

[Bill]

Originally posted by Stuart M


What I'm wondering is whether people found they started developing style as a result of improving their footwork, or - vice versa - did their footwork improve as a result of developing style?
And is the lack of early footwork training related to the wide variety of styling one can achieve?

Very interesting point Stuart and although there has been some discussion elsewhere about style and how to improve the question of footwork keeps coming up.

Part of me thinks the answer is..I don't know Although others say that someone has a 'style' I don;t know if most dancers consciously develop a particular style. I certainly don't know what my style is..I just dance to the music - or try to

The only time I have ever really thought about footwork was by watching Viktor and seeing how even the most basic of moves can be improved by a little footwork - but he didn't make much of it - I just kept watching his feet to see what he was doing. I've commented several times how I think that Viktor and Nigel are - in my opinion - out on their own and what I've learned from Nigel ( but what I can't do to anything like the same standard) is move my feet. Nigel moves just enough at times to place the woman exactly where he wants her and leads superbly.

I also picked up some footwork by watching and listening to Graham & Diane when I attended some of their WCS workshops. I think I did improve as a dancer when I thought more about my own positioning and how to get out of my partner's way and lead her 'properly'.

I'm not as big as Davidb so how you move can depend on your size, shape, ability etc... And if David is who I think he is then he moves very gracefully and with some considerable style !


Sorry this is turning into another rambling response :sorry but I think that footwork follows after a while and it should come naturally rather than thinking where this foot will go. I tried Salsa and only thought of the step pattern rather than the dancing !

It must surely help if a man has tred soem other form of dancing as well - whether ballroom, salsa or whatever. But most ment seem to be dance 'virgins' when they come to Ceroc and so have no experience of footwork so it does take time.

Finally .......... ( sorry !) I think footwork can improve a dancer's style and should almost go unnoticed ... but.... it should be part of how he/she dances or wants to dance and importing someone else's style won't always work.

Well that's me off to bed....probably dream of footwork..

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
It must surely help if a man has tred soem other form of dancing as well - whether ballroom, salsa or whatever. But most ment seem to be dance 'virgins' when they come to Ceroc and so have no experience of footwork so it does take time.

Agree 100% -but it wasn't so much the "footwork" of salsa that made me improve, but the resulting position of my body and how it relates to my partner and the moves:
Ceroc is 80-90% arm movements; dancing from the top, down. Almost all other styles of dance work from the feet, up. (and most comments on what makes good 'style' etc have been on the movement of the feet/body, and not on the actual hand/arm movements that make up the move)

Once you get the timing of other forms of dance and where your body is meant to be, the footwork can be faked quite well

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gadget
Ceroc is 80-90% arm movements; dancing from the top, down. Almost all other styles of dance work from the feet, up. (and most comments on what makes good 'style' etc have been on the movement of the feet/body, and not on the actual hand/arm movements that make up the move)

Once you get the timing of other forms of dance and where your body is meant to be, the footwork can be faked quite well

I disagree here. Ceroc is not 80/90% arm movements.
While we don't actively teach footwork, because we find that with Beginners it gives them a stilted style and removes the main enjoyment aspects of dancing with a partner, we do not teach arm movements!
The focus is on learning the moves / patterns, and so we move the whole body, we find that if you want someone to move their body, it is enough to tell them so, rather than asking them to pick up their right foot, move it forward, put it down, transfer weight, pick up left foot, move it forward, etc... Most people are quite able to 'walk' through most moves.
This approach is great for giving Beginners enthusiasm for dancing, as it removes one of the main barriers to entry, but as been mentioned before, it can eventually limit progress and style for a minority of dancers who, having discovered the joys of partner dancing, want to take it further. Learning footwork then becomes very important, as it allows you to bring variety in your dancing.

However, your assertion that you can 'fake' footwork if you can move your body correctly, is flawed. Footwork is what will make your body move in a Stylish way!
A good example of that is the hip swaying in Salsa (and most latin dances), a lot of dancers try to add the hip movement, and usually look like caricatures. The subtle hip movement, comes from the footwork, ie transferring weight from the toes to the heel, as if burying your heel into the ground, will make your hips move in a much more natural way...

It is probably more the case that if you learn the footwork properly, you are then able to make it so subtle, that you can have the effects of the footwork on your body movements while appearing not to be moving your feet that much!

Franck.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget
Once you get the timing of other forms of dance and where your body is meant to be, the footwork can be faked quite well

I think Franck was right but it just means that Gadget has a low opinion of his own abilities - he thinks hes 'faking' footwork when in actual fact hes quite good at it. After all if it looks the same - how is it fake ?

[Lou]

My very simple viewpoint...

I simply think that the one key thing for Men's footwork isn't how they move, or which foot they move, it's the fact that their body weight gets transfered, so that the balance is maintained between partners. Everything else is a bonus, that adds ease & style to moves.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
I disagree here. Ceroc is not 80/90% arm movements.

Ceroc has more arm movements than other forms of dance. Just walk into a room full of Cerocers and one of the first things you notice is the arms. Most Cerocers make big movements with the arms when they lead (most teachers do as well.) A lot of Cerocers make big movements with the arms when they are not leading. Ceroc tends to be led with the arms, as opposed to the body. There are lots of double handed moves, which makes the arm movement more noticable. There are lots of signals with the arms.

It might not be 80/90%, but it is a significant, and highly visible, part of the dance.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
It might not be 80/90%, but it is a significant, and highly visible, part of the dance.

Oh, I agree, we use both arms a lot
I was disagreeing with the top down point. When teaching, we focus on the whole body pretty much equally.
ie:
- Step back, step in (the main difference is we don't care what foot is used), taking your left hand to left shoulder
- Push left hand towards lady's far hip, ladies Twist out, right foot behind left etc...
- Raise the hand ladies turn clockwise
- and so forth...

I agree that the end result might appear like a lot of arms, and indeed there are loads of double handed moves, or windmill / catapult moves in Ceroc / Modern jive.
The same comment could be made about most dances though, walk into a Lindy class, and all you can see is feet kicking around and bums sticking out
If you go to a salsa class, all you would notice is hips gyrating and sweaty bodies etc...
If you go to a Blues night, all you would notice is Bill and Fran glued to each other...
If you go to a Ballroom class, all you notice is very upright / stiff bodies and arms, with people looking down at their feet a lot...

No offence meant by the above comments by they way, all meant in good humour

Franck.

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
If you go to a salsa class, all you would notice is hips gyrating and sweaty bodies etc...Franck.

And the problem with this???? Sounds damn good to me ... can you recommend any clubs

Only kidding Franck ... honest

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
And the problem with this???? Sounds damn good to me ... can you recommend any clubs

Only kidding Franck ... honest

No problem at all indeed, it's par for the course, every dance has its own identity / signature, which should make it readily identifiable...