Leading into a half-nelson?

[David Bailey]

OK, I should know this one, but I can't remember - is it legit* MJ to lead into a half-nelson on a standard return-type move?

(In the likely event that I'm not being clear, that's when the lady does a full 360 degree turn, and ends facing you with her arm behind her back, rather than a 180 degree turn, into something like a sway).

The reason I ask is that I can't remember if I've ever been taught it properlu in a ceroc class (although it was definitely common at salsa up until a couple of years back, and that's where I nicked it from).

I like the move because it gives me an entry into a series of different types of move - walkarounds, back-and-forwards, cross-body leads, that sort of thing - which normally would be more difficult to lead into.

However, it's a little unusual in MJ, so I wondered if there's a Ceroc(TM) Move Name / Lead thingy for this? Or am I (as usual) just making it up as I go here?

* Whatever that means.

[spindr]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

OK, I should know this one, but I can't remember - is it legit* MJ to lead into a half-nelson on a standard return-type move?

To be honest anything's "legit" -- as long as the lady can follow it, doesn't yank/hurt, etc.

However, I don't think that you'll find that a "regular" MJ follower will follow it -- at least not 360 + hammerlock (over one count) -- especially if it's a travelling version which is 360 + 180 + hammerlock (over one count).
The movement/speed and precision aren't in the general MJ dance vocab -- especially getting the follower turning round to be square on and facing the leader -- well at least not without a degree of coercion.

Your best bet is either slow it over two or more counts, or dance something like an "Arm Jive Swizzle" -- or try and educate followers at your venue.

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

as long as you can lead it, it's legit in my book. This move I find is better if you can lead the lady the first 180º, then lead her to stay put as you move 180º. Unless you get a very good follower and your lead is crystall clear of course.

[Yogi_Bear]

Frankly I think it's a move the MJ dancer can well do without

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Frankly I think it's a move the MJ dancer can well do without

Yep, typical MJ response to anything difficult

For example, same venue, different day, slightly different clientel:

MJ intermediate class: "Sorry guys, you're going to have to move now", or "Ladies, ha-ha-ha watch the men are going to spin now".

Salsa intermediate class: "Hey guys, I should get you dancing triple spins over the next four or so weeks".

SpinDr.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by spindr

Yep, typical MJ response to anything difficult

For example, same venue, different day, slightly different clientel:

MJ intermediate class: "Sorry guys, you're going to have to move now", or "Ladies, ha-ha-ha watch the men are going to spin now".

Salsa intermediate class: "Hey guys, I should get you dancing triple spins over the next four or so weeks".

SpinDr.

Very true.

HOWEVER:

Salsa novice retention rate: 0.01%
MJ novice retention rate: 7-10%


Could there be a connection, do you think?

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Is it legit* MJ to lead into a half-nelson on a standard return-type move?

I've been taught moves of that ilk in MJ (Ceroc), albeit usually as preparation for some kind of dip rather than for proper dancing. I can never do them in freestyle, mind.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

However, it's a little unusual in MJ, so I wondered if there's a Ceroc(TM) Move Name / Lead thingy for this? Or am I (as usual) just making it up as I go here?

If you're starting from a R-R hand hold, isn't this what some people call a head-chopper?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by spindr

Yep, typical MJ response to anything difficult

For example, same venue, different day, slightly different clientel:

MJ intermediate class: "Sorry guys, you're going to have to move now", or "Ladies, ha-ha-ha watch the men are going to spin now".

Salsa intermediate class: "Hey guys, I should get you dancing triple spins over the next four or so weeks".

SpinDr.

Yes but MJ intermediate - anything from about 6 -10 weeks - salsa intermediate - more like 6-9 months (of course salsa has the 'improver' level in between as well)

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by spindr

Yep, typical MJ response to anything difficult


SpinDr.

No, I just think it's a very inelegant move and I can't see any point spending time trying to learn it properly. Better to learn something else instead.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

No, I just think it's a very inelegant move and I can't see any point spending time trying to learn it properly. Better to learn something else instead.

Maybe you've only seen it done inelegantly?

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Maybe you've only seen it done inelegantly?

Is there any other way? Not that I think it's a difficult move, i just hate it...

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

If you're starting from a R-R hand hold, isn't this what some people call a head-chopper?

Errr, possibly. My memory for the names of moves is truly abysmal, as are my descriptions.
As for the hold, yes I usually do R-R, as that's more common. But it's also doable for all the other combinations; I think the main trick with all these arm-behind-the-follower's-back leads is to be clear and careful - if in doubt, do it half-time. It's why I hate moves like the backhander, there's so much potential for damage.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I've been taught moves of that ilk in MJ (Ceroc), albeit usually as preparation for some kind of dip rather than for proper dancing. I can never do them in freestyle, mind.

What about the "swizzle" ending to an arm jive that's taught in beginner's classes? I use this form of half-nelson quite a bit.

[Zebra Woman]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

No, I just think it's a very inelegant move and I can't see any point spending time trying to learn it properly. Better to learn something else instead.

There is nothing inelegant about half nelson moves IMO. They have a latiny/salsa flavour which I really like.

Half nelson moves certainly feel great the way David James leads them , but I imagine a badly led one could cause some shoulder damage to the lady in the same way a rushed 'back hander' can.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Is there any other way? Not that I think it's a difficult move, i just hate it...

Well, I think it's quite a tricky move to do well, that's the "difficult" part of it, to lead to a 360 rather than a 180 takes a bit of finesse, as I think that most MJ followers are conditioned to "default to 180", so you need to kind of rotate the follower's hand a little more, whilst still keeping it clear and safe.
Of course, it's also useful as an anticipation-catcher, not that I'd ever be so nasty as to do that

As for it being difficult, well that's why I posted this thread in the Intermediate section rather than the beginners

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Zebra Woman

Half nelson moves certainly feel great the way David James leads them

You're too kind, I suspect it's better phrased as:
"They look and feel great the way that ZW can do them"
Possibly followers have to be of ZW's calibre to do those moves well (especially when I screw up the lead into them)

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Yes but MJ intermediate - anything from about 6 -10 weeks - salsa intermediate - more like 6-9 months (of course salsa has the 'improver' level in between as well)

so do some mj classes!!

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Gadget

What about the "swizzle" ending to an arm jive that's taught in beginner's classes? I use this form of half-nelson quite a bit.

Well sure. I thought David was talking about one-handed moves, rather than two-handed ones. I find the two handed versions much easier, as I can "stir" a little with the other hand.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Well sure. I thought David was talking about one-handed moves, rather than