The roles of lead and follow...

[Gadget]

inspired from wendy's "dancing by numbers" thread:

Should the "lead" swap between couples during a dance? or should the roles remain fixed?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

inspired from wendy's "dancing by numbers" thread:

Should the "lead" swap between couples during a dance? or should the roles remain fixed?

Why on earth has this got anything to do with "should"?

If you want to swap, swap. If you don't, don't.

[MartinHarper]

Proper lead swapping is a lot of fun, and I'm all in favour of it. It does require two dancers who are both able and willing to dance both roles. The act of lead swapping itself is something that needs to be learnt: giving the lead away, accepting it when it's given, hijacking and being hijacked. In the absence of classes on these things, prepare to experiment and get things wrong.

It is important to me that whoever is taking the lead role should actually be leading, and that both dancers should know who is leading at any particular time. Suppose I am in follow mode, and I want to take over the lead for the duration of a break. First, I need to take over the lead, and my partner needs to realise this. Next I need to lead my partner to stay in-place whilst we strut our stuff. Finally, I need to return the lead to my partner, or else keep leading.

Personally, I have difficulty recognising when I have been given the lead - often we spend a few beats with neither of us leading, before I realise and pick things up again.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Why on earth has this got anything to do with "should"?

If you want to swap, swap. If you don't, don't.

"Should" as in to be expected or not:
Am I being nieve in expecting to maintain my role as a leader throught the dance? Am I supressing my partner by dominating the dance as a lead? If you want to swap, do you stop and discuss it? discuss it before-hand? Who says you should swap? What happens if one partner wants to take the lead or submit to following, but the other wants to maintain their current role?

"Should" sets up the guidelines to work in-between - If I move the lady's hand, she should follow it. If I remove my lead, should she take over as lead? If she hi-jacks the lead, should I now take the role of a follower?

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It does require two dancers who are both able and willing to dance both roles. The act of lead swapping itself is something that needs to be learnt: giving the lead away, accepting it when it's given, hijacking and being hijacked. In the absence of classes on these things, prepare to experiment and get things wrong.

...Except I can't follow . But to all the people who can dual role. I'm sure that there have been a couple of workshops on it.

Is a lady "taking controll" of the dance* actually taking the lead, or are they just "breaking" the lead? {or is that "breaking in" the lead? }
(* back-leading included)

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Is a lady "taking controll" of the dance* actually taking the lead, or are they just "breaking" the lead? {or is that "breaking in" the lead? }
(* back-leading included)

I swap leads alot on the floor, Mainly with women who know the guys moves though as I only know one guy who can follow we call it sabotage.
It's a shame really i think it would be lovely to play sabotage with more fellas it's just that whole issue of learning the moves. I mean women line up and do the male role but some people get a bit funny if the guy decides to walk around the line up doing the womens bit. As we found out at charlton back last summer when The Wacko decided to have a laugh and learn how to follow.

[Graham]

Isn't this like asking whether you should do drops? If you want to do drops, don't dance with someone who doesn't want to perform them. Similarly, if you don't want to give up the lead, don't dance with a partner who likes to take control from time to time. Like ChrisA says, should doesn't really come into it.

[CJ]

Originally Posted by Graham

should doesn't really come into it.

Point of order: Should "should" come into it???

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Graham

Isn't this like asking whether you should do drops? If you want to do drops, don't dance with someone who doesn't want to perform them. Similarly, if you don't want to give up the lead, don't dance with a partner who likes to take control from time to time. Like ChrisA says, should doesn't really come into it.

Well there's one reason why you 'should' do it - that kind of flexibility probably makes you a better dancer overall, for lots of reasons; but it's not exactly a moral imperative.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Is a lady "taking control" of the dance (back-leading included) actually taking the lead?

Back-leading is not proper leading.

Originally Posted by Tazmanian Devil

Some people get a bit funny if the guy decides to walk around the line up doing the womens bit.

Funny looks are a minor problem. The bigger obstacle is that some organisers do not allow guys to do this at all.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Graham

Isn't this like asking whether you should do drops? If you want to do drops, don't dance with someone who doesn't want to perform them. Similarly, if you don't want to give up the lead, don't dance with a partner who likes to take control from time to time. Like ChrisA says, should doesn't really come into it.

Maybe all dancers should agree a safety word at the beginning of a dance that they can use when they're being taken out of their comfort zone... So, Gadge, you can use it if you don't like to submit to the lady taking command from time to time....

Sometimes I change the tempo & take more beats to do a Return, or add some more spins, or overturn a Return & stick a Ronde onto the end, or spot a break & wiggle for a second. That's not Leading. It's playing.

Sometimes I do a Sabotage Move like turning a Loophole (Octopus) into a Tandem, or a Fig of 8 (I turn/you turn) Resistor. That's stealing the Lead for a tiny amount of time, but I expect the man to take it back straight away.

And sometimes, with only a few consenting partners, we actually switch roles during the dance. Like Tazmanian Devil says, it's easier when you're dancing with another woman who knows both roles, but you do get the rare and precious odd man who's happy to follow.

[Sparkles]

I was invited to 'lead' a dance (whist maintaining the lady's role) yesterday, to which I agreed as it was a track I particularly liked and knew well.
We ended up having more of a fight than a dance, as the guy seemed to forget he'd given the lead to me and rather than being able to manoever the dance the way I wanted I eventually gave up trying and let him lead it.
Don't think I'll bother trying that again.
A good experiment, but not such a great outcome. Oh well, it was worth a try.
S. x

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Lou

Sometimes I change the tempo & take more beats to do a Return, or add some more spins, or overturn a Return & stick a Ronde onto the end, or spot a break & wiggle for a second. That's not Leading. It's playing.

I do all those too. I'm just starting to get a bit more confident to 'play' but I soon pick up if the guy doesn't like it (or rather, doesn't know what to do) and stick to following perfectly (well, trying to!) the rest of the dance.

Best thing to swap the roles would be to have an intermediate class 'swap' roles - ie women dance lead and men follow. Not every week, but not as a one off either, maybe once every couple of months. Might not work, but just a suggestion. I think it would improve a guys lead, to learn to follow and vice versa.

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Lou

Maybe all dancers should agree a safety word at the beginning of a dance that they can use when they're being taken out of their comfort zone... So, Gadge, you can use it if you don't like to submit to the lady taking command from time to time....

I've now got a very humorous mental image of the next Ceroc theme night!

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Lou

Maybe all dancers should agree a safety word at the beginning of a dance

Choices, choices, choices... what word would echo best shouted accross the dance floor? Suggestions?

The point is not that you insert a wiggle or slow turn here and there - it's the timing of it and the dissruption it can cause to the lead. How do you know if a man is ready for your wiggle to be unleashed on him?

Would you do it to a beginner? Would you feel the need to do it with an "advanced" dancer? Do you take over when you want to enjoy the music more than the dance?

{I don't honestly mind - I'm just taking an argumentative stance }

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I'm just taking an argumentative stance

How novel

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Lory

I've now got a very humorous mental image of the next Ceroc theme night!

You're a very bad girl, Lory - you deserve to be .... what do you mean that's making it worse?

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Gadget

{I don't honestly mind - I'm just taking an argumentative stance }

There is an easy way to stop the lady playing/backleading -- but not many of them will appreciate an entire dance of windmills

SpinDr.