Tips and Tricks

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gus
though it does give me an idea or two ... ) ... what I mean is it might stop ladies from LEADING.

We only lead when we have to, Gus

[TheTramp]

Unfortunately, in general, that isn't true.... And when I'm teaching, I make a point of telling the ladies NOT to lead. Since, if you do, the guy will get used to it, and will not learn to do it himself.

Let him do it all wrong, and follow that. And THEN tell him how crap he is....

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lou

We only lead when we have to, Gus

And of course as the lady is ALWAYS right (especialy whan she is wrong) I must concede the point ... mea culpa

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
what I mean is it might stop ladies from LEADING

Catch-22. If more men led properly, the ladies wouldn't have to...

Ceroc don't really teach leading in any detail. Most classes never mention anything about leading. (I'm talking about proper leading, not signals). It might get taught in workshops, but how many people go to the workshops. I would guess that most men dance without ever having being told how to lead.

If the men don't lead, what are the ladies supposed to do. In a class they do the routine, dragging the men through if they have to. In freestyle they dance the same way as they do in the class. I can't argue with any of that. I'm not going to start telling ladies not to go to the classes, or to ignore what is being taught.

But if you start teaching how to lead in normal classes, then you go against one of the principles of Ceroc - keeping dancing simple.

Personally I would take 5 minutes at the start of the intermediate class, and do something other than a move. It could be one of the exercises suggested, or a styling point, or something that is going to be shown in more detail in a future workshop. Once you start teaching something, then you can comment on people not doing it.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Ceroc don't really teach leading in any detail. Most classes never mention anything about leading.
~SNIP~
But if you start teaching how to lead in normal classes, then you go against one of the principles of Ceroc - keeping dancing simple.

I disagree David, at most (all?) classes I have seen, leading is mentioned, taught and regularly explained. Probably not at the level of detail you imply, and not using any of the tips above which are ideal for a workshop situation.

Each move (Beginners moves in particular), is taught from the man's perspective, the 'lead action' is described, as in lower your hand / push towards, pull down and raise, etc... This might not be advanced leading (as you described when talking about leverage etc...), but for the purpose of a Beginners' class and, as you mention, to keep it simple, it is sufficient.
Most Beginners (men) don't lead because they lack the confidence to do so. They are not yet sure that they are doing the move right, and therefore don't feel comfortable inflicting any lead on their partner.
This situation is not helped by ladies who do lead, thereby allowing men to get away with little or no lead, or worse, re-inforcing their self-doubt!

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
I disagree David, at most (all?) classes I have seen, leading is mentioned, taught and regularly explained. Probably not at the level of detail you imply, and not using any of the tips above which are ideal for a workshop situation.
Franck.

Maybe ... but I think all Ceroc instructors should be forced to dance with all the lasses in their clubs to find the ones who insisit on clinging on for dear life and trying to lead. The worst case is alwys the double pretzel where I've lost count of the number of ladies who try to pull out at the end of the first phase ... that can REALLY hurt the guys elbow.

Actualy ... to put things in perspective ... its not just Ceroc clubs, the local Blitz clubs are even worse but it was a bit of a shock to go back to my old club after a few months and get mauled

In response to what Dave has said .. maybe its a point that should be hammered home every month or so ... along with guys not trying to drag and throw the ladies around by using forcefull leads ... two sides of the same coin?

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Maybe ... but I think all Ceroc instructors should be forced to dance with all the lasses in their clubs to find the ones who insisit on clinging on for dear life and trying to lead.

You mean they don't????
I am genuinely surprised there I can't say I always manage to dance with every single Beginner every night, but I do try, and will get them all over a few weeks anyway! All the classes I have been to, the same applied.

Originally posted by Gus
The worst case is alwys the double pretzel where I've lost count of the number of ladies who try to pull out at the end of the first phase ... that can REALLY hurt the guys elbow.

Well this one is notoriously difficult to lead safely, especially if the women anticipate (which I think is a different problem to leading).
My view is that Beginner women tend to lead, ie push / pull themselves into what they think is the move, whereas more 'experienced' women don't lead, but anticipate and move ahead of the lead (assuming there was going to be one), thus either seriously limiting the potential of the dance, or sometimes causing pain

Originally posted by Gus
In response to what Dave has said .. maybe its a point that should be hammered home every month or so ... along with guys not trying to drag and throw the ladies around by using forcefull leads ... two sides of the same coin?

My view is that point is hammered just about every week, and at every class, though there might be local variations?

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
You mean they don't????
I am genuinely surprised there I can't say I always manage to dance with every single Beginner every night, but I do try, and will get them all over a few weeks anyway! All the classes I have been to, the same applied.
My view is that point is hammered just about every week, and at every class, though there might be local variations?

Franck.

Franck .. sorry to say that despite all the great coaching we got as CTA teachers I would say that at the majority of events I go to, the Teachers DO NOT dance with beginners. For all the high principles that I hear from Ceroc HQ, I've seen few venues where the theory is put into practice

Thats is why I made my comments. If teachers spent more of their time dancing with all the punters, like an adiditonal taxi dancer, then a lot of the bad habits would soon dissapear. I've noticed this to be even more the case with the newer teachers.

Before I get lynched can I stress that from what I've seen at the Scotish venues (Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh) none of the above applies ... that why I like coming back as often as I can!

[Lou]

Originally posted by DavidB
If the men don't lead, what are the ladies supposed to do. In a class they do the routine, dragging the men through if they have to. In freestyle they dance the same way as they do in the class. I can't argue with any of that. I'm not going to start telling ladies not to go to the classes, or to ignore what is being taught.

Guilty as charged, M'Lord.

I've never known really what I should do in a class situation when there's a poor lead. I, and most other ladies, just proceed to where we're meant to be, regardless of a lack of lead. I'm quite self-conscious in a class situation, anyway, and I'd hate to be seen by a teacher doing a move/routine wrong, when it's not my fault & I'd been led badly.

[TheTramp]

I can back up Gus on this one. I taxied for over 2 years in Central London - for most of the teachers there. In that time, I hardly ever saw a teacher dance with a beginner - unless the beginner went up and asked (which of course, doesn't happen very often!!). In fact, a number of the teachers hardly ever dance at all. And one in particular had left the venue within 10 minutes of the class finishing.

This is of course about 10 months out of date. But I'd be surprised if anything has changed.

Steve

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Franck .. sorry to say that despite all the great coaching we got as CTA teachers I would say that at the majority of events I go to, the Teachers DO NOT dance with beginners.

I find this very sad
Both as a teacher (who really enjoys dancing with Beginners), and as a Franchisee. Dancing with new members / Beginners is one of the best way to help a night develop successfully. Not just in attendance figures, but also in creating a friendly welcoming attitude...
Teachers should lead by example, and I am proud to say that in Scotland we all do (most of the time that is, as we all have off nights :nice).

Franck.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
Each move (Beginners moves in particular), is taught from the man's perspective, the 'lead action' is described, as in lower your hand / push towards, pull down and raise, etc...

Sorry Franck - I disagree. All I ever hear is "Semicircle with the hand and step back. Step in. Twist out. Twist Back. Turn the girl out. And Return her back." The only thing close to a lead is the "semicircle", and even that is not explained as a lead.

I think for beginners that it is ok not to teach much about leading. Even though you would end up with better dancers in the long run, you would almost certainly put the majority of them off. Most men have enough problems with dancing already to cope with any extra information.

Intermediate dancers should be able to cope with learning how to lead and follow. After all they seem to have no problem learning complicated moves, or signals, or drops, or even aerials... It doesn't have to be anything complicated. At it's simplest, leading is just guiding the lady's hand where you want her to go, and the lady just follows the hand wherever it is led.

I was trying to think of moves where a lead is mentionned. Occasionally I've heard in a class that the lead for a turn is raising your hand. (Question - is it?) And spins almost always get taught with a lead, even if it is usually a "big" "strong" "push" with the hand. (I wouldn't even do a big strong push with my hand when dancing with Steve!)

A lot depends on the teachers. Viktor suggested lots of things about leading in the last class I saw. I think at the party you talked about 'keeping a frame' in the dip. Scot talked about using the hand to twist the lady in the class he taught at Hammersmith. Unfortunately most teachers seem to be reluctant to explain every move. Leading and following is 'cause and effect'. Ceroc are very good at teaching the 'effect'. The cause seems to get forgotten about.

If experienced dancers keep commenting on the low standard of leading & following, then something needs to be done about it.

RE Teachers dancing with people in the class. Roger Chin & Nigel (of Nigel & Nina) should get a special mention - they are never off the floor.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Sorry Franck - I disagree. All I ever hear is "Semicircle with the hand and step back. Step in. Twist out. Twist Back. Turn the girl out. And Return her back." The only thing close to a lead is the "semicircle", and even that is not explained as a lead.

~snip~

A lot depends on the teachers.

I reckon this sums it up in the end. Though having spent the last 3 months helping Lisa (Aberdeen) prepare for her Beginners and Intermediate Teacher training course, I would like to point out that the lead is definitely included in the instructions that each new teacher has to learn word for word. The examples I gave above were all direct quotes taken from the Beginners moves teaching 'script'.
In particular, female teachers, spend more time teaching as a man so they can understand the feel of leading!

Personally, during a class I feel it is easier to teach a man to lead, than to teach a woman to stop leading... Unfortunately, because men rarely experience what a leading action should feel like (refer to thread on men dancing together), their understanding of leading can be severely skewed, either too strong (hurting their partner) or too weak / unclear, leaving their partner wondering what to do, and effectively taking over!
I am very aware that when I tell the men to push down towards the ladies' hip, or to give a short tug to get their partner travelling (in the manspin for example), different men will react to the same instruction in completely different ways
In the end, nothing can replace a workshop where you can actually correct each individual there and then, and indeed use some of the tips you shared at the beginning of this thread.

Raising the hand to lead (indicate?) a turn is a lead in my view, though you can add to the lead by flicking your fingers if you want a faster turn or an extra turn. Unfortunately, if you ask Beginners to 'lead' a turn, they tend to overdo it, and end up 'stirring porridge'...

Franck.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
Raising the hand to lead (indicate?) a turn is a lead in my view, though you can add to the lead by flicking your fingers if you want a faster turn or an extra turn. Unfortunately, if you ask Beginners to 'lead' a turn, they tend to overdo it, and end up 'stirring porridge'...

I know some teachers who say that raising the hand is only a lead for the lady to raise her own hand. A turn is lead either by raising the hand and turning the lady with the other hand (eg first move), or by using a circular motion with the raised hand (eg yoyo). If you just raise your hand, then she can turn either way, fast or slow, or just stand there and improvise. However virtually every lady will turn...

David

[Gadget]

{Excelent thread BTW}

Originally posted by Franck
~snip~I would like to point out that the lead is definitely included in the instructions

I am aware that Lorna does give good instructions and tips on leading a move properly- eg. on Tues for the catapult, the "Pull forward and down, then raise to turn the lady..." was supplemented by telling us that the hand should brush the thigh before coming back up again.
If this isn't what DavidB was referring to by teaching a lead, then what else could be said from the stage that people would understand and not get board with ?

Raising the hand to lead (indicate?) a turn is a lead in my view

I don't know where I picked it up, but I always tend to draw a small halo above the lady's head with my fingers/hand (not arm), but I think that the movement up to that point is important as well; I think I sort of aim for the relevant shoulder, then take the hand above the head - very seldom do I get ladies turning the wrong way. I do however find a problem with stopping them turning; with some ladies, all you need to do is lift your arm and they are in a turn.

With teachers dancing in classes, I know that Lisa is only off of the floor when she is on stage. Linda is on the floor a lot as well - but I think that most beginners (and some of the rest of us :sorry) are a little bit intimidated by dancing with them.

[TheTramp]

I know what you mean Gadget, Lisa intimidates me too.

(I can safely say this, since she's down in London, and won't be back until Monday!!).

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
eg. on Tues for the catapult, the "Pull forward and down, then raise to turn the lady..." was supplemented by telling us that the hand should brush the thigh before coming back up again.
If this isn't what DavidB was referring to by teaching a lead, then what else could be said from the stage that people would understand and not get board with ?

That is exactly what I'm talking about. Unfortunately too many teachers skip over it - I think they get bored teaching it, not the class getting bored hearing it again.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Gus
Franck .. sorry to say that despite all the great coaching we got as CTA teachers I would say that at the majority of events I go to, the Teachers DO NOT dance with beginners.

Franck - Sorry, I know this is going back to several postings ago but, from what I've seen, I agree that most Ceroc teachers don't dance with newcomers and beginners. And I think it's really sad, too.

I've danced at an awful lot of venues all round the country and, even when I was a very obvious beginner, have virtually never been asked to dance with the teacher.

The only exception I can think of, was a fantastic Ceroc teacher at, I think, Cheltenham, but I can't for the life of me remember his name. (And more recently, now I've been to their venues, I've had dances with Nigel Anderson and Roger Chin - although they're non-Ceroc.)

Marc doesn't count as a teacher who dances with me, obviously - though at his venue he always spends the entire night dancing first and foremost with new people.

But I also think the demonstrators should do the same on their on-duty nights.

Anyway, that's one of the reasons I was so shocked - and racked with nerves - when you asked me to dance on my trips to Glasgow. I just wasn't used to the teacher coming to ask me to dance!!! But I really appreciated it, thanks!
Rachel

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
I know some teachers who say that raising the hand is only a lead for the lady to raise her own hand.

Yes, I can relate to that. I suppose raising the hand is not enough, though maybe, raising your hand over your partner's head might be a better lead for a turn.
I suspect this is no more than a useful 'short-hand' to lead a turn. As you say, most women develop a 'Pavlovian reflex' and turn as soon as their hand goes up. Very useful it is too, except for the odd move, like the stepacross, where the men raise the hand to walk underneath it, and many women proceed to turn, resulting in a clash.

On the other hand, saying that raising the hand is only a lead for the lady to raise her hand is a bit simplistic, most leading actions imply a whole body movement from a subtle hand movement, so it is not too far-fetched to read a turn in raising the hand, especially as there is also forward momentum to take the hand over the lady's head (left or right side for CW / ACW).

Franck.