Tips and Tricks

[TheTramp]

Well, I'm not so sure about that Heather....

You see, when I'm teaching, or dancing, I always accept full responsibility, since it's me who's in charge. So, if things go wrong, then it's my fault.

Now, in life in general. Since the women are in charge. If things go wrong, surely they are the ones who have to hold up their hands and admit responsibility??

Steve

[Graham]

Firstly I completely agree with Steve's post about moves you can do with beginners. I guess what you can do depends on your skill as a leader, but I think inevitably there will be some moves which either don't work at all or don't work so well. For example, any move which requires the follower to improvise is going to send a beginner into a panic, but there are a raft of others which are simply difficult to lead unless there is a good connection with the follower, and beginners typically don't have this.

On the issue of followers helping, I have mixed views. When I am trying to work out the mechanics of a move (which arm is going up, which direction is this turn) and the follower has understood already, I'd prefer her to tell me or show me, as this way I will understand more quickly. However, once we're doing it to a beat or to music I'd rather she allowed me to try and lead, even if it goes wrong. To be honest, I find this a much bigger problem with beginner women than more experienced dancers, especially when they are oblivious to the fact that I am leading the moves, and they don't actually need to follow the teacher instead! :reallymad :reallymad When I do the beginners class I manage to grin and bear it, but beginners who join in the intermediate class on their first couple of nights deserve to be strung up!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

[Emma]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Ummm. Good job that it's a FEmale led dance eh. Or they'd really be in trouble....

Steve

Don't getcha..

[TheTramp]

Ummm. The men who say, 'Oh I'll be alright you know what you're doing'.

You know. The men. Who are supposed to be leading.

If it wasn't for you leading them, they'd be in trouble.

Or something like that.

Steve

[Emma]

Originally posted by TheTramp


Or something like that.

Nah, I doubt it...

Sorry, being un-naturally dense today, obviously

[TheTramp]

S'okie. I spend most of my life like that.

Hmmm. So, would that become 'naturally' dense then??

Steve

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this. ~snip~. Next time I'm up in Scotland, if you want to take a real beginner, and start leading her through all the variations on neckbreaks, pretzels, backhanders, archie-spins (all what I would call 'nice' moves) and prove me wrong, I'll be willing to eat my hat.

...I have no doubt that you know lots and lots more moves {and/or variations} than I do ; I tend not to do neck breaks (I don't like the lead into them, but there are alternative ways to get to the same starting point), but back-handers & archie moves are not that bad.
Leading a beginner through "intermediate" moves not too difficult if you break it down: hardest bit is getting to the start of the move properly. Then if you pause or walk for a couple of beats to break the move where it changes from a standard move, it gives a better feel for where they are and where the move is moving them/you to.
Most intermediate moves are bits of one beginner move, tagged onto a bit of another with a re-direction/reversal/spin slotted in to make it a bit different.
{I wouldn't do any tunnels, secret catch or improvising moves either - only moves that can be lead. I do have problems sometimes with a wrap however (perhaps I need to work on leading it better )}

I get your point with toning it down for beginner dancers, but I think that I do the opposite; I try to kick it up a level for better dancers (note 'try' )

Maybe Scottish ladies are just more naturally gifted than their counterparts down here...

It could also be that. I have only ever danced with two or three beginners that I have danced with the beginner's class moves and only the beginners class moves (I try to do those moves anyway, but tend to throw in a few variations and other basic connecting moves)

Originally posted by Graham
...especially when they are oblivious to the fact that I am leading the moves, and they don't actually need to follow the teacher instead!

Yea; trying to dance with someone that has their head straining to always be watching the stage when you are 'putting the moves together' is a pain; you need to match the demonstrator's moves and timing exactly or they lose it and try to lead you (most often with strength )

[Jon]

Originally posted by Emma


I do this, sometimes, but really it makes me feel so mean. Sometimes men say to me 'Oh I'll be alright you know what you're doing' and it doesn't seem fair at that point to just not follow if they haven't got the move.

It's not being mean, not much anyway!. But it's the only way the men will learn to lead. When I started I hated a woman leading, but appreciated it when she helped me when she recognised I was struggling.

[Jon]

Originally posted by TheTramp
S'okie. I spend most of my life like that.

Hmmm. So, would that become 'naturally' dense then??

Steve

Watch it Steve! Some of our ladies are delicate flowers!

[TheTramp]

But it's the only way the men will learn to lead. When I started I hated a woman leading, but appreciated it when she helped me when she recognised I was struggling.

I disagree. It might help you learn the move. But it doesn't help you learning how to lead. The only way you'll do that, is by leading. And not following.

On the other side of the coin. Has anyone noticed whether the women who lead in the class (in an attempt to 'help' the guy) are then more likely to want to lead, or at least, not follow so well, when it comes to dancing?

Steve

[TheTramp]

Watch it Steve! Some of our ladies are delicate flowers!

Oh. I'm sure they are. Sort of.

If you look at that again though, you'll see that I was talking about myself!!

Steve

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
On the other side of the coin. Has anyone noticed whether the women who lead in the class (in an attempt to 'help' the guy) are then more likely to want to lead, or at least, not follow so well, when it comes to dancing?

With one or two exceptions, I think that those who lead in class don't actually lead on the dance floor, in my opinion they actually are among the better followers.
I think that they are only trying to get the move(s) correct in class so that they recognise them and know where to go when they are lead it properly. When it comes to freestyle, there is no-one on stage to follow, no pre-choreographed routine, so nothing to follow except the man's lead.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget

With one or two exceptions, I think that those who lead in class don't actually lead on the dance floor, in my opinion they actually are among the better followers.
I think that they are only trying to get the move(s) correct in class so that they recognise them and know where to go when they are lead it properly. When it comes to freestyle, there is no-one on stage to follow, no pre-choreographed routine, so nothing to follow except the man's lead.

So are you saying that ladies who do have a tendency to lead in freestyle are little lambs in the class? Seems a trifle unlikely.

Originally posted by TheTramp
Oh. I'm sure they are [delicate flowers]. Sort of.

Sort of delicate or sort of flowers?

[Reklaw]

Originally posted by Jon
But it's the only way the men will learn to lead. When I started I hated a woman leading, but appreciated it when she helped me when she recognised I was struggling.

There's a significant but subtle difference between women who lead and those who can show the man how the move works then can switch to allow herself to be lead. It's a great skill for the female taxi-dancers!

We always have a problem with women leading, it's caused by the (inexperienced) men lacking confidence to lead a move firmly so the women push the men through the move, the men "learn" that the women know the move so they don't learn to lead it, which frustrates the women causing them to lead more..... and so on.

The way I try to get round it is to encourage the new women to dance with experienced men as soon as possible in the hope that they will not feel frustrated enough to start leading..... doesn't always work though.

Any tips on getting beginner men to lead firmly from the start gratefully accepted.

[DavidB]

I would say that about 50% of the ladies backlead in a class, and 2% backlead in freestyle. What worries me is that so many ladies feel the need to backlead. Are we men so bad at leading???

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Graham
So are you saying that ladies who do have a tendency to lead in freestyle are little lambs in the class? Seems a trifle unlikely.

Now I didn't say 'little lambs' - I'll leave the Aberdonian sheep inferences to Bill.
All I am saying is that give those who tend to lead in class a decent lead and they follow it quite well. Although, now I think on it a bit more, it tends to be these people who over-anticipate the moves and make variations a bit harder to perform - but they do notice when they cause a move to go awry, and generally relax to let you get it right the next time.

Originally posted by DavidB
Are we men so bad at leading???

Perhaps it's just that most women are used to giving instructions rather than recieving them ? Us men don't normally get a chance to have that much control over a woman - we are a bit out of practice.
{doomed. - shouldn't have posted that...}

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gadget
Perhaps it's just that most women are used to giving instructions rather than recieving them ? Us men don't normally get a chance to have that much control over a woman - we are a bit out of practice.
{doomed. - shouldn't have posted that...}

Hehehehe!

[TheTramp]

Perhaps it's just that most women are used to giving instructions rather than recieving them ? Us men don't normally get a chance to have that much control over a woman - we are a bit out of practice.

I'd start running for the hills now mate!!!

Steve

[Lou]

It's bloomin' hard being a woman.

I like to think I do follow OK in freestyle though I'll admit to anticipating at times, which I wasn't really aware of until we started this discussion & I plan to work on (for example, it'll be the start of a Yoyo & I'll think... "oooh, a Yoyo, I know what to do, as opposed to being led).

The majority of men in freestyle have a good lead. Typically, they dance the moves that they know well. In a class situation, where they're learning new or unfamiliar moves, then the lead is weaker. If the lady knows it already, then you are going to get Emma's experience.

[Dan]

Originally posted by Lou
It's bloomin' hard being a woman.

I like to think I do follow OK in freestyle though I'll admit to anticipating at times, which I wasn't really aware of until we started this discussion & I plan to work on (for example, it'll be the start of a Yoyo & I'll think... "oooh, a Yoyo, I know what to do, as opposed to being led).

The majority of men in freestyle have a good lead. Typically, they dance the moves that they know well. In a class situation, where they're learning new or unfamiliar moves, then the lead is weaker. If the lady knows it already, then you are going to get Emma's experience.

You've said it. It is all about familiarity of the lady with the move as led by that particular man. I find that a large percentage of ladies, particularly the intermediate ones will self lead during the classes but be absolutely fine in freestyle, in terms of following the lead. The classes must be a bit boring for them.
In Freestyle if the man is boring and repeat the same moves, then this encourages the lady to think that she knows what he intends to do, and she will "help".
Therefore my advice to me fellow male dancers is - keep it interesting and keep the ladies on their toes and keen. We cannot have them falling asleep or doing their own thing. For men who are beginners and doing a limited number of moves, try to vary the order of the moves or just vary your facial expression or something else, make them laugh/or cry. We can't have the ladies starting an new fashion of officially leading and us following. (Most of us are quite useless at turning and spinning, don't tell them.)

Andre