Spinning around...

[Stuart M]

Maybe this should belong in a special section for Taxi dancers, but I'm sure other gents would benefit, so I'm putting it here. Maybe the ladies can give us some extra guidance as well!

Anyway, the question is: how can you show a woman how to spin properly? The most common difficulty female newcomers have seems to be in spinning on the spot. I know teaching isn't the main brief of a Taxi, but they do ask these sorts of questions and I'm always struggling for a good answer.

I know there's general guidance - like don't "stir" your partner around in a return, etc. but these are more about what the guy should be doing. Are there any other things we gents could be doing to help?

On a related point, Franck, a number of new women who came along recently have been wearing soft-soled training shoes (there were 4 last night), which are a nightmare for spinning in. I could see they were getting frustrated with their problems spinning, and it may have put them off coming back. Does the publicity say anything about suitable footwear?

[DavidB]

One of the biggest things I have been shown is to prepare for a spin by twisting your body in the opposite direction. So if you want to spin to your right, you start with your weight on your left foot, and your body twisted to the left. To spin, you step onto your right, untwist your body, and you should get enough momentum to get round the spin.

This action happens naturally when spinning in Ceroc. Think of any move like a Yoyo, or First Move. Just before the spin, you are twisted in the opposite direction. And when you do a return, you have usually just spun the other way, and are already twisted.

But when you are trying to show someone how to spin, they are usually just standing normally, and have not prepared in any way. You have to be a very good dancer to create a spin from nothing.

David

[Franck]

Whoops, Stuart, sorry about the late reply, I had not noticed that thread...

Originally posted by Stuart M
Anyway, the question is: how can you show a woman how to spin properly? The most common difficulty female newcomers have seems to be in spinning on the spot. I know teaching isn't the main brief of a Taxi, but they do ask these sorts of questions and I'm always struggling for a good answer.

I know there's general guidance - like don't "stir" your partner around in a return, etc. but these are more about what the guy should be doing. Are there any other things we gents could be doing to help?

As you say, the main point for the ladies is to spin / turn on the spot, i.e. they should finish their turn / spin at the same place they started it. Most of the problem, will come from lack of balance and confidence. In effect, ladies should spin / turn on the ball of one foot (typically left foot when spinning left, and right foot when spinning right), this requires that some muscles in their leg are strong / developed enough for spinning, and therefore, only comes after a bit of practise. A lot of women will notice that they have a stronger leg, on which they find spinning easier...
To start with, beginners will often compensate by using both feet while spinning / turning, resulting in a travelling motion. (This is not a huge problem in freestyle, though it does force the men to follow their partner around the floor a bit )
As a taxi-dancer, you should first reassure them that they will get better over time, and that they should practise spinning as often as possible. They should try to slow down their spin / turn, as this will prevent the over-enthusiastic thrust which often leads to more loss of balance.
You could also mention the Beginners workshops which usually offer some help in that area.

Originally posted by Stuart M
On a related point, Franck, a number of new women who came along recently have been wearing soft-soled training shoes (there were 4 last night), which are a nightmare for spinning in. I could see they were getting frustrated with their problems spinning, and it may have put them off coming back. Does the publicity say anything about suitable footwear?

With regards to foot-wear, we tend not to recommend any particular type of shoes when starting.
While hard-sole shoes might help the spin, they also can mask the other problems I mentionned above, and, my view is that women have very varied preferences in shoes for dancing, and I would rather they spent a few weeks learning to dance and finding out that way which shoes are best for them, rather than invest in a pair of shoes that might prove unsuitable for them later...

I hope this helps,

Franck.

[John S]

All I would like to add to what has been said is to advise the person trying to spin NOT to look down at his/her feet, or bend his/her body, as that will usually result in falling over.

There's a good list of spinning tips (and also tips for guys leading spins etc) on the wonderful jiveaholic site (no apologies for plugging it again) at http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk/

Jiveaholic also refers out to another site at http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow which I haven't explored yet, but seems to cover an enormous range of dance topics.

In my experience, the average lady dancer can spin better than the average guy dancer - possibly they have to, as a lot of the male spinning is optional, so maybe some of the ladies reading this can say how they learned to do it so well?

[Wendy]

Spinning is a tricky one!

I love spinning to the left (must have a stronger left leg for some reason) but hate spinning to the right
(feel like my shoes are made of chewing gum !).

Practise makes perfect and all that.

Having said that, when I practise at home, I always end up banging my hand into corners of bookshelves etc. Well, what's another bruise in the pursuit of excellence ....

Wendy xxx

[Stuart M]

Loads of good advice - thanks all.

Something else I tried on Monday to help with this, was to actually try dancing the woman's part. Yes, I know, next it'll be admitting how comfortable silk underwear is, experimenting with make-up, volunteering to demo with Franck ....well, hang on, I'd have to draw a line somewhere

But seriously, it did show me just how difficult it is for women learning - I was hopeless at everything other than an Octopus - and I'll be more patient in future.

And thanks to Wendy and Janet for letting me try dancing the other part on Monday (though I think they were repayed with a right good laugh at my expense! :sorry )

[Janet]

And thanks to Wendy and Janet for letting me try dancing the other part on Monday

No problem Stuart. Anytime!

(though I think they were repayed with a right good laugh at my expense! :sorry )

Yup... I haven't had so much fun in ages (at dancing that is! )

So, now you can testify to all the guys out there that in fact following is not as easy as it looks!
And if you don't, I'll tell everyone just how 'good' you were.
Or was it all just down to my poor leading???

Franck, it looks like a 'St Patrick's style' lesson might be in order for Glasgow?

As for spinning, it is all an illusion ....

Janet

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Janet

Franck, it looks like a 'St Patrick's style' lesson might be in order for Glasgow?

I never knew a "roles reversed" class had a proper name.

Up to you, Franck, but if my effort was anything to go by the drop-out rate would be pretty high! Besides, aren't we trying to stop the gals from ever thinking they can lead the dance ?

I'll give it another go , though - certainly helps me understand all the mistakes women make on the dance-floor (sorry, I mean the mistakes we guys make which they always follow...)!

Thanks for the offer Janet

[Franck]

Originally posted by Stuart M
I never knew a "roles reversed" class had a proper name.

I doesn't. It's just that the last "role reversal" class I taught was at the St Patrick's party night in Aberdeen...

The hope, is that men understand how hard it is to follow when the lead is too "subtle" or non-existent , and the women, realise how hard it is to lead and think ahead of the next move (especially when men insist on leading !!! )

I might do that for the next Glasgow night (11th May), which I am reliably informed also happens to be the 'UK day of dance'... Whatever that means

Franck.

[jiveoholic]

I am starting to realise that a man spinning and a lady spinning might be more different than one thinks.

When a lady spins, she is lead by a man. She twists her body in the opposite way as has been described and then rebounds off then man's hand (without using her feet!) with a rigid arm. It has to be done this way, otherwise a man cannot lead a double spin rather than a single (in the same time that is!).

When I occasionally build up the courage to try a full man spin then I spin myself and that HAS to be with my feet because the lady cannot help me. Even when I do a man's catapult from a sway, the lady usually does not know what to do and I get no help being spun round 1.5 turns, so I have to do it myself.

I wonder whether it is about time to introduce a few standard moves where the lady leads the man to spin!

I am beginning to think that one of the important points with spinning (as a follower) is that it is done from the arms and not the feet. This of course fits perfectly well with the fact that when stepping in and out on normal jive moves, it is the arms that change the direction of motion and not braking with the feet. Turning therfore only differs from stepping in and out because it is about angular mometum change rather than lateral. Well that has now confused everything!

[Franck]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
I am starting to realise that a man spinning and a lady spinning might be more different than one thinks.

When a lady spins, she is lead by a man. She twists her body in the opposite way as has been described and then rebounds off then man's hand (without using her feet!) with a rigid arm. It has to be done this way, otherwise a man cannot lead a double spin rather than a single (in the same time that is!).

I am not sure that this is true. Both and women would normally use their own momentum for spinning, the man leading is only there to provide the timing of the spin, not the energy for it.
I do not think you can really lead a double spin, this is up to your partner. You can certainly emphasize your action, to encourage her to double spin, but at the end of the day it will be up to her. Women will use the manÕs hand , but certainly do not have to (as demonstrated in Òair dancingÓ when there is no hand contact), and either of you should still be able to double / treble spin.

Originally posted by jiveoholic
I wonder whether it is about time to introduce a few standard moves where the lady leads the man to spin!

Oh, no! that would be the thin end of the wedge, next thing, youÔll have women leading...
Your partner should not have to lead you at all into a spin, in fact, she should not feel anything different at all prior to the spin.

Originally posted by jiveoholic
I am beginning to think that one of the important points with spinning (as a follower) is that it is done from the arms and not the feet. This of course fits perfectly well with the fact that when stepping in and out on normal jive moves, it is the arms that change the direction of motion and not braking with the feet. Turning therfore only differs from stepping in and out because it is about angular mometum change rather than lateral. Well that has now confused everything!

Ok, you have lost me now , but I think I agree, your arms / upper body play a very important part in spinning, and I often recommend that you use your elbows when practising to create momentum, one elbow chasing the other, but never getting any closer (like a dog chasing his own tail! )

Franck

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Franck
I am not sure that this is true. Both and women would normally use their own momentum for spinning, the man leading is only there to provide the timing of the spin, not the energy for it. Franck

Hmmm....now this is getting interesting. Momentum comes from "force" which can either come from the man pushing or the lady using her feet. Before the spin she is at rest so clearly it cannot come from nowhere. Perhaps the question is whether jive turns/spins could be performed on rollerskates (without using a side push)! I would agree that some/many ladies do initiate their own turns. The question is whether they should do so. There is no doubt that my style means that I intiate their turns (although perhaps they carry them on somehow). Maybe there is a spectrum from light leads who just facilitate the lady's timing as you say and forceful leads, however even for these, the lady can just go limp and not allow his force to turn her.

I would be interested in feedback from a statistical sample of ladies on this one! I feel a survey coming on - if only I can work out how to do it!

[Franck]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
Hmmm....now this is getting interesting. Momentum comes from "force" which can either come from the man pushing or the lady using her feet. Before the spin she is at rest so clearly it cannot come from nowhere.

Well force can come from the upper body, by simply twisting your upper body, you can start a spin, without involving either a man or your feet.

Originally posted by jiveoholic
I would agree that some/many ladies do initiate their own turns. The question is whether they should do so. There is no doubt that my style means that I intiate their turns (although perhaps they carry them on somehow). Maybe there is a spectrum from light leads who just facilitate the lady's timing as you say and forceful leads, however even for these, the lady can just go limp and not allow his force to turn her.

I would be interested in feedback from a statistical sample of ladies on this one! I feel a survey coming on - if only I can work out how to do it!

I think we are talking about different things. The man will always initiate the turn / spin, ie he will lead his partner into a turn / spin. However, the lady will take the lead and initiate a turn / spin either through her own momentum or by using the man's hand as a prop to push against.
Either way, once the turn / spin is signalled, the man becomes pretty passive, only providing resistance to the lady's tension.
I believe this is the best way, as all too often the men try to be overly active and end up de-stabilizing their partners rather than help them.

Franck.

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Franck
Well force can come from the upper body, by simply twisting your upper body, you can start a spin, without involving either a man or your feet.

I think we are talking about different things. The man will always initiate the turn / spin, ie he will lead his partner into a turn / spin. However, the lady will take the lead and initiate a turn / spin either through her own momentum or by using the man's hand as a prop to push against.
Either way, once the turn / spin is signalled, the man becomes pretty passive, only providing resistance to the lady's tension.
I believe this is the best way, as all too often the men try to be overly active and end up de-stabilizing their partners rather than help them.

Franck.

Nicely put! Cetainly with respect to the lady pushing against the man's hand (ie she uses her hands to spin not her feet).

I'm interested in the concept of "using her own momentum". Is there a move etc that is an example of this for the lady spinning? I feel that I do this when I perform a full man-spin as I have no hand to push from.

[Tiggerbabe]

Can I be a statistical lady and reply?

I've been trying to think of a move where I spin without being lead into it by my partner and so far I've not come up with any - however it is Monday...................

I totally agree that the man will initiate the spin but it is really up to the lady how many spins she does. The gentleman can definitely facilitate a double or even triple spin but the more forceful guys do tend to knock you off balance. I think it is a tension thing - good dancers offer you resistance but let you spin by yourself. The problem comes, in my humble opinion, when less experienced dancers see girls spinning really well when dancing with someone else and think the only way to help is by flinging them in the opposite direction with all the force they can muster - this only serves to either bump you into an other couple, dislocate your shoulder or hasten your journey towards the floor.

There's no better feeling than that first double spin though..........well nothing that I can mention here before the watershed!

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Sheena
good dancers offer you resistance but let you spin by yourself.

Yes!

Just come back from Jive (Ceroc this time) and out of a statistical sample of one lady who expressed a preference(!) (the demonstrator), this was her comment.....

.....she likes resistance and tries to spin totally from her hand and not her feet. However some men offer less resistance so she has to use her feet too. Without being prompted, she stated that she prefers forceful men, but ones who just offer resistance and do not stir her around and knock her off balance!

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Franck
Well force can come from the upper body, by simply twisting your upper body, you can start a spin, without involving either a man or your feet.

Hopefully this isn't over pedantic, but twisting your upper body to start a spin wouldn't work if it wasn't for the force between your feet and the ground. If you try doing exactly the same motion in a swivel chair, you'll find your lower body does an "equal and opposite" twist and there's no net spin at all. Without something to "push" against, angular momentum is conserved.

[Strictly speaking, it is possible to "turn" but not "spin". That is, you can change the direction in which you are facing - this is how a cat lands on its feet when dropped upside down - but this can't be used to generate a true spin where your whole body is turning the same way].

Anyone wanting even more boring technical detail may find this article of interest:

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/public.../twisting.html

Getting back to men v.s. women - even the very good male spinners (Viktor, Joseph, Humphrey) tend to use quite different technique from the women. Women usually spin with both feet close together and close to the floor, and it can be hard to tell which foot they're using at any moment. The men tend to have the feet further apart, and if they spin one footed, often have the other foot way off the ground. My gut feeling is that spinning like this is easier to control but (relatively) slow. Because men tend to use more force when spinning, it's a good trade-off for them.

Apart from men not getting the practice, I think there are other things that make it harder for men.

Firstly, it's hard to "make the space" for a spin. Typically either the man has to travel a lot during the spin (hard!), or he and the lady spin simultaneously, which means he can't use her as a "stabilizer" at the end of the move, as she's coming out of a spin herself.

Secondly, just as the men aren't used to spinning, the women aren't used to waiting for a man to spin, and do tend to wander off! Personally, when I do fast multiple spins, I can't spot my partner, I spot the whole wall in the direction I was facing at the start of the spin. If she moves behind me, I'm in trouble. And if I accidentally travel on the spin, it's very rare for the women to compensate and catch me.

Thirdly, when you've got the balance absolutely right and pulled off 13 rapid revolutions, whispering to your partner afterwards "I need you to hold me up for a second - I'm really dizzy" isn't quite as acceptable as it is the other way around!

Dave

[Franck]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Hopefully this isn't over pedantic, but twisting your upper body to start a spin wouldn't work if it wasn't for the force between your feet and the ground. If you try doing exactly the same motion in a swivel chair, you'll find your lower body does an "equal and opposite" twist and there's no net spin at all. Without something to "push" against, angular momentum is conserved.

Ok, I accept this of course, my point was in the context of a spin being initiated by either force applied to your partner's hand or using your own feet to initiate the spin.
Most people (and certainly good spinners) will be able to start a double + spin from a standing start without help from a partner or visibly using their feet as a mean of propulsion.

Originally posted by David Franklin
Getting back to men v.s. women - even the very good male spinners (Viktor, Joseph, Humphrey) tend to use quite different technique from the women. Women usually spin with both feet close together and close to the floor, and it can be hard to tell which foot they're using at any moment. The men tend to have the feet further apart, and if they spin one footed, often have the other foot way off the ground. My gut feeling is that spinning like this is easier to control but (relatively) slow. Because men tend to use more force when spinning, it's a good trade-off for them.

While I agree that most men have poor technique while spinning (due to lack of practise), men who spin regularly and who teach spinning as part of workshops (Viktor is a great example) have far more control over their spinning than that, and will typically spin with both feet close, choosing which foot to spin on (for effect rather than balance - ie crossing over etc...). Having one foot "way off the ground" always a bad idea really.

Originally posted by David Franklin
Apart from men not getting the practice, I think there are other things that make it harder for men.

Therein lies the essence of the problem, most men do not get the chance to practise spinning. They must remain in control to be able to lead their partner into the next move, and a man spinning out of control really does not look good

However, as I love spinning, I am all in favour of men practising more and more often. Ladies should get used to having to wait for the man finishing a treble spin, and indeed start thinking of stylish things to do while waiting
So here we go ladies, the gauntlet is down, who will pick it up and suggest a few things to do while you're watching your partner spin endlessly?

Franck.

[Janet]

Originally posted by Franck
So here we go ladies, the gauntlet is down, who will pick it up and suggest a few things to do while you're watching your partner spin endlessly?

Whatever you do it should definitely be done with Attitude.

The old watch watching is definitely a good fall back, or how about a little toe-tapping-hands-on-hips.
Keep a lady waiting at your peril, guys! :reallymad

Often the man will change feet while he is doing his sextuple spin (or whatever he claims it was ) and in doing so end up 10 feet away from you. When this happens, I like to use the music to make a pointed return to my partner - always assuming I can't persuade him to come to me.