Closed Position

[DavidB]

I've been lucky enough recently to dance with a lot of people I've never danced with before. Something that I noticed several ladies doing was holding on when in a closed position - either gripping onto my arm, or with her arm behind my back . (Closed position is also known as a ballroom hold, with the man's right hand on the lady's back or shoulder blade.)

For me it is an inconvenience - it severly limits the moves I can do to get out of this position. But apart from the one lady who had a vice-like grip on my arm, it is not going to hurt me. However it can be dangerous for the lady, especially if she puts her hand behind the man's back. If the man leads an underarm turn a bit quicker or stronger than expected, the arm can get trapped there, and the shoulder gets wrenched.

In other dances, the ladies get taught to place their arm on top of the man's shoulder. That way she still has a connection, but protects herself from injury. I have seen this taught in a couple of Ceroc classes - by female teachers. I can't remember any male teachers pointing it out. Is the 'arm on the shoulder' the standard Ceroc way of teaching it, or were the lady teachers just trying to be as helpful and protective as possible.

David

[TheTramp]

Maybe they think that if they hold onto you tightly, they'll get another dance.....

Or maybe they think that if they don't hold onto you tightly, someone will sidle up to you mid-dance, and suggest a swap of partners Though, I can't think of anyone who'd do that!!

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
. Something that I noticed several ladies doing was holding on when in a closed position - either gripping onto my arm, or with her arm behind my back ...... I have seen this taught in a couple of Ceroc classes - by female teachers. I can't remember any male teachers pointing it out.

David

Odd... the only time as a CTA teacher we were directed on this it was to have the ladies put their hand on the man's shoulder as you turn them out, say on beat 3 of the first move ... again, to prevent the ladies arm from getting trapped. In most cases the ladies are expected to have their spare hand out to the side (e.g. beats 2 and 4 of the first move) ... usualy as a style point, this way the move can be 'varied' to catch hold of the spare hand/elbow to flick spin the lady.

I agree with your point that its nice for the spare hand to be on the shoulder in a closed position. Must admit I've never had a lass pull me in that tight .... what aftershave are you using??

[TheTramp]

Was it just something that was happening on Saturday night David?

Maybe it was something that N&N or Simon taught during the workshop if it was....

Steve

[Lou]

I've been taught it in LeRoc a couple of times. I remember specifically - Jenny of LeRoc2000, in a beginner's class, during a Neckbreak & a First Move. I don't agree with it, though.
I prefer to keep my left hand slightly out in front of the man during the wrap in of the neckbreak, as it means he can grab it easily should he decide to do a variation.
I'm one of those ladies who puts her hand on the man's shoulder during the First Move, but it does mean that it's bloody hard to flick spin me, as Gus suggests! I like it, though, as it suits the kinda Latin style that I prefer....

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
the only time as a CTA teacher we were directed on this it was to have the ladies put their hand on the man's shoulder as you turn them out, say on beat 3 of the first move ... again, to prevent the ladies arm from getting trapped. In most cases the ladies are expected to have their spare hand out to the side (e.g. beats 2 and 4 of the first move) ... usualy as a style point, this way the move can be 'varied' to catch hold of the spare hand/elbow to flick spin the lady.

What I've been taught in other dances is that the the lady places her hand on the man's shoulder only after he has brought her into a closed position. To compare that to Jive would mean her hand goes to the shoulder between counts 2 and 3 in a first move. As long as the man keeps her in closed position, then she should keep the arm there. It provides too much of the connection to be lost. So I would normally expect to still be in a closed position on count 4.

To catch the lady and do a flick spin, I can still turn the lady from a closed position and bring my right hand through to catch her left arm from underneath. Or I can separate out of closed position on the 4, and catch her arm over the top on 5. (I prefer the catch under the arm - it is not as obvious to anyone watching what has happened.)

By 'on the shoulder' I mean with the lady's forearm resting on the man's upper arm, and her hand resting on the top, or the front, of the shoulder. Depending on the height difference, 'shoulder' could be anything from the collar bone to the deltoid muscle (the one you use for lifting your arm up). The man should feel the weight of the lady's arm, and little else.

I can only think of one step where I would want the lady's hand on my back. To do that I would bring my arm over the top of hers.

Originally posted by TheTramp
Was it just something that was happening on Saturday night

It happens quite a lot, at lots of venues. It is by no means every lady who does it - maybe one in five?. I do tend to do a lot of variations on basic moves, so perhaps I just notice it more.

Or maybe they think that if they don't hold onto you tightly, someone will sidle up to you mid-dance, and suggest a swap of partners Though, I can't think of anyone who'd do that!!

Or even worse, pinch your partner, and not give you their old partner in return...
I only know one person who would do that, but he's only a beginner...

[TheTramp]

Or even worse, pinch your partner, and not give you their old partner in return...

What a git that bloke must be. Point him out to me, and we'll take him outside and have a quiet word with him about what's acceptable behaviour on the dancefloor!!

Steve :sorry

[jiveoholic]

This is an interesting point and VERY important for beginners. They always seem to get tangled up with me, especially if one does a first move and then does not turn them ACW 360 but blocks after 180 with the left arm on the left shoulder.

Maybe I am being very simplistic - but one needs to be for a beginner. I say:

Place her left arm on my shoulder on count 3 (NOT count 2), ie when she is turned 180 CW out to be facing the same direction.

Then remove her arm and keep it close to her chest on count 4.

I explain that unless it is kept well out of the way on count 4, I am unable to do lots of interesting moves.

If on count 4 she finds that your are going to twirl her around in a ballroom hold, then she can alway place her hand back on the shoulder again. It may be less cool than getting it right first time, but it IS safer.

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
This is an interesting point and VERY important for beginners. They always seem to get tangled up with me...

It sounds like you're doing the Intermediate 4-beat First Move with the beginners. Have you tried the 5-beat Beginner First Move (lady toe point version) instead? It might help them with positioning.

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Ronde!


Hi Ronde

It sounds like you're doing the Intermediate 4-beat First Move with the beginners. Have you tried the 5-beat Beginner First Move (lady toe point version) instead? It might help them with positioning.

Unfortunately, the names of moves eg "Intermediate 4-beat First Move" are not universally understood. My version of the first move is (see www.jiveoholic.org.uk):

[1] Step apart under tension.

[2] Step in, placing your right hand round the lady's waist and taking your left hand to your left shoulder. The lady should be snug to your RHS facing in opposite directions and should not have started turning.

[3] Step back on your left leg as you twist the lady CW 180 so she steps back right behind left. She should place her left hand on your right shoulder for support.

[4] Pull your right hand back to your left shoulder to turn her ACW 180 and so return her to the previous position. She should have removed her left hand and be keeping it close to her body - out of the way. Many dancers position her more centrally. Some ladies do not turn back fully to face the man on beat 4. This can lead to her being stopped before the beat and as she had to have stopped herself, the man loses the natural compression he needs to turn her next.

[5] Keep your left hand high and turn her 360 CW until she faces. Ensure you do not push down at the start of the turn otherwise she will think it is a first move push spin.

[6] Step back under tension.

[7] Step in and return lady 360 ACW.

[8] Step back under tension.

I would be extremely interested in what you mean by 4-beat and 5-beat?

Sorry for being a thicky!

[Ronde!]

From step [4]-[5], you describe the lady going from the facing position directly into the spin. In the "beginner" edition at [4], the lady steps [L] in front of the man and pivots on [L] to face him, pointing the [R] toe behind without any weight on it.

Lady pauses the beat the [R] points and the [L] would normally step (hence this is a "5 beat" First Move); [R] comes back to neutral for the lady to spin.

Because of the weight distribution, and the slight extra time, the lady is less inclined to get tangled (and more inclined to be positioned correctly, hence the use of this move for beginners); however, the scope for using this to go into other moves is slightly compromised as it requires the man to recalibrate his timing.

This is why we teach the 5-step to begin with, and then teach the 4-step at Intermediate workshop.

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Is the 'arm on the shoulder' the standard Ceroc way of teaching it, or were the lady teachers just trying to be as helpful and protective as possible.

Yes, I would say it was part of the standard teach of a First Move. The hand is off the shoulder on beat 2, lands on the upper arm / shoulder on beat 3 (when twisting out), and comes off for beat 4.
From there, my favourite way of teaching arm placement, is to have your spare arm tucked in, either in front of you (when turning clockwise) or behind you (when turning anti-clockwise), ie your hand points to the way you are turning.

The only reason I can think of why male teachers might not mention it is because they are not focusing on what their partner is doing enough, and are too busy teaching the lead of the move...

I hope this makes sense and that I understood your question correctly!

Franck.