Subtleties and improvements to Ceroc moves

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Tessalicious

Indeed - a point which I frequently forget when put into this position, as it for some reason makes me feel more panickingly claustrophobic than a much closer ballroom hold - but I'll try to remember the knee for next time (DavidJames, watch out!)

I used to take the straightjacket nice and slowly - half-time, wiggling, just to get the lady used to it.

But now I find it's easier to lead (for a first-timer) if I just bomb into it, using momentum to turn the lady - usually it's done so quickly that way she doesn't have time to sabotage it / screw it up.

Caveat: you've got to be extremely confident with this one to get it right at that speed; kids, don't try this at home etc.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

On the exit you raise the left hand, lead with the right forearm to turn the lady clockwise on the same beat as she steps back.

Ahh, I see the problem now. I do something similar to this when leading a standard first move exit in the standard number of beats - something I've picked up from JazzJive and Lindy. The same confusion wouldn't exist if I used a purist Ceroc first move. I'll have to experiment to see if I can lead the difference between the two.

Thanks, ESG.

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by LMC

And the problem with watching her arm is?

Nothing at all - and in my fictitious example I'm sure that's exactly what the man was doing.

But if her arm is so close to er... other areas.. that leaders need to look to check where their hand is, I guess that glance might get misinterpreted.

FWIW I'm not sure where I look in reality - in a crowded venue I'd probably glance behind me at around that point as I'm about to step back. Or into my partner's eyes of course.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by DavidY

But if her arm is so close to er... other areas.. that leaders need to look to check where their hand is, I guess that glance might get misinterpreted.

[ deadpan ] glance/stare - it's all in the timing...

Moving swiftly along from the first move (before f**twork creeps in...)...

Next topic: does anyone else find that guys who lead a catapault don't extend their left hand back far enough for the follower to take it until they have stepped forward - not a major problem, but the looks of surprise when I don't take the hand immediately are sometimes mildly irritating - I always want to point out that I don't have arms like a gorilla...

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Excellent piece of observation.

Originally Posted by ChrisA

The reason is that she won't end up back facing you unless she first steps forward,

Ah, so that's why it's also at the beginning of the first move and the Pretzel. I've noticed quite a few ladies try and just pivot in place rather than step forward in the middle of the first move, which messes up the positioning.

Originally Posted by ChrisA

and leading her forward (into the pivot as she comes back to face you), rather than pulling her hand up, is a much better way of initiating the movement

I prefer to pull (gently) outwards rather than down as I've noticed leading down causes the lady to bend forward taking her spine off vertical and unbalancing things.

Originally Posted by ChrisA

(you don't pull her hand up other times you want her to step forward, do you?).

I spent quite a while playing with variations of this when I started as i wanted something that would work even if the person didn't know they were "supposed" to step forwards.

Based on the Misleading Moves Thread, the obvious lead is to shout at the lady "STEP FORWARDS NOW!"

Originally Posted by ChrisA

There are lots and lots of details like this, that make a lead more followable, and less "clunky" feeling. Be on the lookout for these.

There's two problems with this.
A) I might misunderstand why something is being done.
B) I can end up picking up the teacher's bad habits (ducks for cover)

All details welcomed. Thanks to everyone who's posted so far


I'll put up some more observations in a bit and hopefully the more experienced can explain / correct them for me

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

DISCLAIMER

I've written the following as "fact" because the english gets too clumsy if I phrase everything with "maybe" "IMHO" etc. But all of this is just based on my observations and as such may be completely wrong

It's all written from the man's perspective.

Ok according to my handy Beginners Checklist the Beginners Moves are
First Move - already covered, though feel free to add more stuff
First Move Pushspin -
Armjive - if the lady is backleading it's sometimes necessary to go into a rotating armjive to stop yourself being punched in the chest/ribs
Armjive Pushspin -
Armjive Swizzle - slightly firmer hold on the lady's left hand to indicate you're going to keep hold of it. With the extension of the swizzle man steps to the left to give a more comfortable arm placement
Manspin - I've seen a double spin version where the guy walked on tip toes through the move rather than spinning on the spot
Backpass The man needs to keep his left hand away for as long as possible to minimise the length of time it's in the lady's reach, otherwise some ladies will try and take it with their left hand. I also had one lady who kept mutating it into a half windmill, but I can't quite remember how (I don't think she knew the backpass)
Shoulderslide Despite what the teachers say a lot of ladies don't put their hand on your shoulder if you lead their hand there. Instead of leading to the top/back of shoulder, lead to the front of the shoulder and let their hand slide up, over and down
Step Across - It's a nice recovery move if you or the lady has lost your balance; a really easy way to get back in time with the beat is to extend the arc in the middle as you step past and when the beat occurs, make that the apex. It's also a good move to set up more complicated moves eg Pretzel as it naturally flows into a nice clean lead in. Be aware of how the height difference between you. It's better to use a different bridging move eg manspin than to have to bend your knees because the lady is small as it may well make her feel self conscious.
Octopus be careful coming out of this into linear moves eg armjive as circular moves seem to follow more naturally.
Basket As you come out of the side wrapped up position completely and clearly let go with your right hand to avoid confusion about possible variations (assuming you're not leading a variation).
Side to side ShouldersOn the first side to side watch what the lady does. If you want you can mirror, complement it in the second repetition.
In and Out - it's easier to push back against the lady's palms if there's a downwards slope from the man's arms to the lady's arms as it opens up the angle. If the lady give you nothing to push against you can gently put your thumbs over her fingers and guide her through the move (but this is BAD and should only be done very gently)
Yoyo - as man steps in and brings right hand to left shoulder, right foot is placed in a stepped out to the right position rather than pararllel with left foot to ease transition into next part of the move
Cerocspin I personally do this with the ladyspin 'ball in socket grip' just to make it absolutley clear that I'm going to spin them. It's also an easier way to brake their momentum to a halt as you set up for the move.
Comb Needs a slight dip of the hand just before you comb yourself to get the distance right. If you try to spin the lady around and comb yourself in one curve, you'll probably be too close.
Slo Comb It's remarkably easy to move a lady around the floor by just slowly walking when in a slo comb. Good for easing into space for the next move or getting away from inconsiderate dancers
Catapult - if the lady doesn't take your left hand when she's behind you just leave your left arm back and step to the right and the lady will eventually collect your spare hand
Shoulder Drop At the end when you lead the lady forwards, step in directly behind her (slipstream) otherwise she ends up too far to your left

Now if the nice experienced dancers would go through it and make coments, that would be great. . I'm not married to any of it so feel free to tear it to bits.

Thanks,
Christopher

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by LMC

Next topic: does anyone else find that guys who lead a catapault don't extend their left hand back far enough for the follower to take it until they have stepped forward - not a major problem, but the looks of surprise when I don't take the hand immediately are sometimes mildly irritating - I always want to point out that I don't have arms like a gorilla...

I'm sure I've seen it deliberately taught with leaders told to keep their arm well out of reach of the follower until they step forward. Is this what you mean?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Armjive - if the lady is backleading it's sometimes necessary to

....dance with someone else.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

....dance with someone else.

Take care,
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by LMC

Next topic: does anyone else find that guys who lead a catapult don't extend their left hand back far enough for the follower to take it until they have stepped forward?

Yeah, fairly often.
As a lead, I often find myself turning to my right as I send the girl past me on that side, which leaves my left hand unable to go as far back as my right.
As a follow, it's mostly taking overlarge steps, and/or overturning.

[robd]

Re: 'Amir's First Move'

Well, I have read the description and still can't quite picture it, or follow it with any smoothness when trying it.

Is it demoed on his Jango DVD (which I am umming and ahhing over buying)?

Robert

[Trish]

Originally Posted by robd

Re: 'Amir's First Move'

Well, I have read the description and still can't quite picture it, or follow it with any smoothness when trying it.

Is it demoed on his Jango DVD (which I am umming and ahhing over buying)?

Robert

Don't know about whether it's on the Jango DVD, although I guess it might be. I should be able to direct you into it I think (it's only the end that's different from a normal first move - basically you just turn the girl out early), but sometimes it's easier to see what these things look like. If DJ (no, not David James!) is around next time you're in Peterborough I can demo it with him for you if you like, otherwise I may be able to show you with one of the Peterborough girls, although I'd probably have to work it out first as I haven't lead it.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Ok according to my handy Beginners Checklist the Beginners Moves are...

OK - adding to the tips; from what I've learned...
Armjive - if the lady is backleading it's sometimes necessary to go into a rotating armjive to stop yourself being punched in the chest/ribs
When initiating the armjive (with an unknown dancer), stand with feet shoulder-width appart, then simply pivot on either foot and transfer the weight to the back foot. This avoids any problems with "larger" ladies and eliminates most problems associated with lady's being forcefull.

Armjive Pushspin -
remember to 'push' down to the floor, slightly towards the lady's outer hip. And it's not throwing the ladies hand; it's a gentle and constant push: very easy to send the follower off-balance by pushing too hard.

Armjive Swizzle - slightly firmer hold on the lady's left hand to indicate you're going to keep hold of it. With the extension of the swizzle man steps to the left to give a more comfortable arm placement
No - you don't need to hold firmer: just drop the left hand lower on the curve (bum or lower rather than hip level) before taking it to the half nelson. Don't worry too much about the hand hold here - a hip hold works just as well.
On the extension, don't make it a full "step" to the left - simply 'step out' to spread the legs and make sure that the lady's arm is straight, gently pushed slightly behind the shoulder to ensure she completes the move.

Manspin - I've seen a double spin version where the guy walked on tip toes through the move rather than spinning on the spot
Same advice as the lady's get on spinning: Use the step as a preperation - spin on the spot - then step back. Trying to spin and move without being guided is very hard.
Make sure that this move is done as a joint move: lead the lady round you, and step to the side - it makes the lead easier, the follow easier and the move flow better.

Backpass The man needs to keep his left hand away for as long as possible to minimise the length of time it's in the lady's reach, otherwise some ladies will try and take it with their left hand. I also had one lady who kept mutating it into a half windmill, but I can't quite remember how (I don't think she knew the backpass)
Cheat with this move: don't actually 'pass' the hand - place it on your right hip, then collect it again from your left. Same effect, less likley to be missunderstood.

Shoulderslide Despite what the teachers say a lot of ladies don't put their hand on your shoulder if you lead their hand there. Instead of leading to the top/back of shoulder, lead to the front of the shoulder and let their hand slide up, over and down
A lot of ladies don't like being that intimate. A lot of ladies don't like sweaty shirts. I have/do purposfully lead shoulder slides and man-spins with no back contact.
To avoid contact, a simple weight shift forward about an inch or two and starting to turn the instant the hand is placed will work. The reverse {with known partners and to be cheeky} is shifting the weight back to move the torso against the follower's hand as it travels*, and leave turning untill the last possible moment - even to the extent of catching before facing your partner.
{* this can involve a step back if the lady is traveling or taking big steps }

Step Across - It's a nice recovery move if you or the lady has lost your balance; a really easy way to get back in time with the beat is to extend the arc in the middle as you step past and when the beat occurs, make that the apex. It's also a good move to set up more complicated moves eg Pretzel as it naturally flows into a nice clean lead in. Be aware of how the height difference between you. It's better to use a different bridging move eg manspin than to have to bend your knees because the lady is small as it may well make her feel self conscious.
Any move can be used as a 'filler' to regain posture/balance/beat... tips for the Step Across are to make sure that you start the follower moving forward before raising the hand and make sure that your hand is above your head when you turn and not in limbo between you.
Another thing I do is to use my right hand (thumb down) to 'guide' the follower's right hip past you - this eliminates any missunderstanding and can be used to prevent the follower from turning when they shouldn't.

Octopus be careful coming out of this into linear moves eg armjive as circular moves seem to follow more naturally.
They follow naturally because you are leading the lady to your right, then stepping right and so forth... make this move easier for the follower and share the 'lateral' movement between you: side-step to the left and forward on the 'basket' bit, and step through so you are back in-line and exactly where the follower started. Same with the next bit.

Basket As you come out of the side wrapped up position completely and clearly let go with your right hand to avoid confusion about possible variations (assuming you're not leading a variation).
There are no single handed moves that cannot be started double handed, then dropped as the move starts. I fact it can lead to some 'interesting' variations.
As above, share the lateral movement, and it flows so much better if you match the follower's step out rather than mirroring it (right foot back). Another 'smoothness' tip is to use the contact with the lady's back on your bicep and forearm to start the un-wrap rather than dragging them out with the left hand.

Side to side ShouldersOn the first side to side watch what the lady does. If you want you can mirror, complement it in the second repetition.
Make the exit lead start in a similar way to the start of the side-to-side so that the move seems to flow out rather than come to a stop before having another move to exit.

In and Out - it's easier to push back against the lady's palms if there's a downwards slope from the man's arms to the lady's arms as it opens up the angle. If the lady give you nothing to push against you can gently put your thumbs over her fingers and guide her through the move (but this is BAD and should only be done very gently)
?? no. Number one: don't do the 'birdy song' actions - it's not the most stylish, swave or elegant move ever, but any 'cool' points you built up during the rest of the dance suddenly evaporate when you both waggle your elbows like that. {sorry: pet hate.}
Keep the hands low and relaxed - almost to the sides. Picture flying a stunt kite and pulling to give it more height. Don't bump chests, but that's the impression you want to give - almost like the european air-cheek kiss. Don't step too far back.

Yoyo - as man steps in and brings right hand to left shoulder, right foot is placed in a stepped out to the right position rather than pararllel with left foot to ease transition into next part of the move
Carefull: that foot back may interfear with the follower's turning. It will also encourage the follower to step further back and have more risk of the 'chicken wing' injury.
Make sure that the hand is led from high to low and weight is transferred with the movement - a simple pivot, keping weight on that foot rather than any turning helps. The 'block' is not a hand block: the block is with your fore-arm, vertical; the hand just makes sure you don't miss. The lead out from that ripples up to the fingers.

Cerocspin I personally do this with the ladyspin 'ball in socket grip' just to make it absolutley clear that I'm going to spin them. It's also an easier way to brake their momentum to a halt as you set up for the move.
Using the "ball and socket" method relys on you leading the lady to one side and effectivly throwing them off balance. The 'wrist catch' method allows the follower's momentum to be gently checked as they 'over-turn' into it.
The lead out should be just the same gradient: increased momentum to guide the follower rather than shoving them. (see 'push-spin' above)

Comb Needs a slight dip of the hand just before you comb yourself to get the distance right. If you try to spin the lady around and comb yourself in one curve, you'll probably be too close.
There is a lot to do with timing in a comb: step in when the folower's back is to you - hand stays high. If you are taller, you want to be closer, or do a semi-lunge to one side of your partner and drop so that your partner's eyes are about shoulder level (eye level can be a bit intimidating) DO NOT LEAN. Chin over crotch.
As they complete the turn, you have to take their hand over your head without leading them forward. This is about maintaining momentum and not pulling them into/out of/through the return.
The hand should drop onto your shoulder as you hault the momentum (I still prefer the 'hip block' rather than 'elbow' method)
Two options now; are you going for smootchy or impact? A simple lead away with immediate release of the right hand will break the hold and it's always nicer to finish with a slide-down to the left hand, even if you have to swap after that.
For the closer version; release the right hand a fraction later and use the blocking hand to prevent her from escaping. If you dropped lower, use the stand-up motion to break the right hand hold. The right can then be used on the follower's back for a more 'intemate' hold. {Followers: use the left palm on the inside of the lead's shoulder as a block and 'safety net'... or do devilish things with it if you know your partner }

Slo Comb It's remarkably easy to move a lady around the floor by just slowly walking when in a slo comb. Good for easing into space for the next move or getting away from inconsiderate dancers
Slight tip: notice how similar this position is to a 'closed first move' or 'ballroom' hold? you've got lots of time in the walky bit to make a subtle change in holds.

Catapult - if the lady doesn't take your left hand when she's behind you just leave your left arm back and step to the right and the lady will eventually collect your spare hand
If they don't take your hand, you have probably stepped forward. Lead the follower towards you as you take a side step left. They turn where you were. lead them back as you straddle that gap and offer.
On the lean, you have another option of leaning - all weight over one foot and weld the other to your torso so that as the torso leans forward, the leg moves backward: gives the illusion of a lean without relying on your partner holding you.
As with the lead in, take a step right on the exit (and I then step back in as she is turning.) On the spin, don't end the free-spin lead sending your partner to your left: send her infront of you.

Shoulder Drop At the end when you lead the lady forwards, step in directly behind her (slipstream) otherwise she ends up too far to your left
Depends on how you lead it. If you try to rush it or not 'hesitate' between sliding in and stepping forward, then yes, this can happen. the other thing to do would be to rotate so that they are behind you, or continue the slide movement right to catch side-on.
There's masses that can go wrong in this move - just wing it and pretend it was what you intended to happen


See also...Beginner Moves: tips and advice

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Gadget

OK - adding to the tips; from what I've learned...

Thanks Gadget, I had a play with these concepts tonight.

Originally Posted by Gadget

also...Beginner Moves: tips and advice

"I don't want to know, "keep it small","bend your knees","look into her face","smile","don't force her"... I want to know why I should keep it small, how bending the knees will help, why I should stare into her eyes, why my facial expression matters,..."

Yeah one of my bugbears with Ceroc is the whole "learn it unconciously as you go along". Especially as the response I most often get from teachers / taxi drivers to a technical query is

"You know that's a good question. I don't know"

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Or you can use this forum of course

definitely helps

So, Core Intermediate Moves next then anyone?

Thanks,
Christopher

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Ghost

...the response I most often get from teachers / taxi drivers to a technical query is

"You know that's a good question. I don't know"

If you're asking taxi drivers technical questions about Ceroc then "I don't know" seems a respectable answer, just like it would be if you asked your average taxi dancer the best route from Hammersmith to the Old Kent Road, avoiding rush-hour traffic.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

If you're asking taxi drivers technical questions about Ceroc then "I don't know" seems a respectable answer, just like it would be if you asked your average taxi dancer the best route from Hammersmith to the Old Kent Road, avoiding rush-hour traffic.

It all makes sense now.

I guess I should stop going into staffrooms and asking the teachers about flamenco drops too?

Take care,
Christopher