The judges decision is final!

[TheTramp]

So. This seems to crop up after just about every competition I've been to. And with the exception of the ceroc one last May (which I can't go to), and the first Scottish one (which I would have gone to if I hadn't been teaching that weekend), I've been to every major competition in the last 3 years.

Personally, I think that the judges votes should be made available for every round, for every competitor. If they aren't, how are people supposed to know where to improve for next time?

I hope that the people running the competitions see this thread, and take note of the opinion of the people voting.....

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by TheTramp
So. This seems to crop up after just about every competition I've been to. And with the exception of the ceroc one last May (which I can't go to),

Cant you wear some sort of a disguise. A big moustach for example

Originally posted by TheTramp
and the first Scottish one (which I would have gone to if I hadn't been teaching that weekend), I've been to every major competition in the last 3 years.

Is there an exhaustive list anywhere? Ive no idea what competitions there are!

[Bill]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Personally, I think that the judges votes should be made available for every round, for every competitor. If they aren't, how are people supposed to know where to improve for next time?

Steve

Good point Steve but the problem is that knowing your marks ( or possibly lack of them !!) won't help you improve. It'll tell you either that you didn't dance well or that there were several couples who were better than you. And I've seen rounds which are 'better' than others because the standard seems to be higher but still only 3 coupes or so can go through.

As mentioned elsewhere by Dadivb some written feedback from a judge would be very helpful but with so many competitors how would they have the time ?

But I do think marks should be available - even if not on the day. They can always be posted on the websire a week or so afterwards. When I was watching the Ceroc comp form a couple of years ago I was still amazed at soem of the decisions in the lucky dip. Even on the day I thought there were couples dancing really well together who didn't progress and a few who were not as good who got through. Ce'st la vie I suppose eh !

[Gadget]

A majority want to protect the anonymity of the judges; can I ask why?
I would think that knowing the markings of particular judges would help form a picture of how they score, and so help in any future competitions where they are judging.

If you think they should be kept anonymous, wouldn't it just be better to see an agrigate of the scoring, rather than each individual judges opinion?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget
A majority want to protect the anonymity of the judges; can I ask why?
I would think that knowing the markings of particular judges would help form a picture of how they score, and so help in any future competitions where they are judging.

If you think they should be kept anonymous, wouldn't it just be better to see an agrigate of the scoring, rather than each individual judges opinion?

I think its the scoring thats important not the way individual judges scored - anonymity would ensure no one would bare a grudge or complain of bias against particular judges. I think thats important as its the competition organisers who decide what is being judged on, not the judges themselves. As for aggregates etc.. the more statistics the better for most people I imagine as you're bound to look better in one set of statistics than another so it'll please more people some of the time. I always score highly in the brunette 6'1 Scottish Males with blonde partners catagory

[Lindsay]

I think the scoring/comments sheet should be made available for competitors, should they wish feedback, but not put on public display, i.e. notice board/website.

As for not protecting the anonymity of judges, I suspect that in the dance community this might lead to grudges/bias as DS says.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Personally, I think that the judges votes should be made available for every round, for every competitor. If they aren't, how are people supposed to know where to improve for next time?
Steve

I don't compete but I agree with Steve on this. Some kind of feedback should be made available.

Sandy

[Bill]

and I think it's difficult to avoid bias completely as has been said before. We all have styles we prefer and possibly even moves so some folk might prefer a latin 'feel' while others might opt for a more lindy style.

And of course it can be a negative bias as well. With the dance 'world' being quite small some judges may well find themselves judging a person/people they don't actually like very much and being only human it could be difficult getting that out of your head ( I would imagine!). With a number of judges this should be less of a problem ( Unless none of them like you ) but one poor mark could be enough to prevent a couple getting through a round.

At the top competition level almost everyone knows everyone else so perhaps it all evens itself out but at least if the marks for each judge were posted it might help - but no doubt there would still be debates and differences of opinion and threads like this one

[TheTramp]

Cant you wear some sort of a disguise. A big moustach for example

They might still recognise me. Unless I can find some way to disguise my stomach!! I turned up at Adams 'Masked Ball' last year, in full Mask (the film) outfit, complete with head covering rubber mask. Adam just looked at me, and said 'Hello Mr. Lampert'.

Is there an exhaustive list anywhere? Ive no idea what competitions there are!

Well. Listing the 'The is a competition' events (rather than the dance events that have a competition attached to them - like the CerocMetro Masked Ball (see above)), there is Blackpool, London Ceroc, Scotland Ceroc, Bristol LeRoc, and a new one being held for the first time this year in Brighton in October. If I can help anyone with details about any of the above, send me a PM.

Good point Steve but the problem is that knowing your marks ( or possibly lack of them !!) won't help you improve.

Sorry Bill, but I disagree. If you know that you scored 4/5 for musicality, but only 2/5 for technicality, then you know that you need to work on some bigger, more complex moves next time, but that your musicality is needing less work etc. It may not help you get better, but you'll have an indication of where the work needs to be.

I agree that on the day would be hellishly difficult to organise. But these days, I can't see any reason why all the results wouldn't be put on the web site fairly soon after the competition. Even the people who don't have a computer themselves, will know someone who does.

The reason I think that all rounds should be posted (rather than just the final), is that the people in the final are generally scoring pretty highly in all categories, so they don't really need a great deal of feedback. That would be mainly for everyone to see why a certain couple won. It's the people who go out in earlier rounds that might be able to use their marks to improve and go further next time.

I'm a little torn (after Gus' post about what happened to Anne in Bristol) about the whole anonimity. But, my general feeling is that the judges should be held accountable - especially since it seems that some people are turning judging into their thing, and seem to be judging at a number of the competitions. If one particular judge seems to mark you lower all the time, then you may wish to re-consider entering a competition that he or she is judging, if you know that it's going to be difficult to progress (if you're entering in a serious competative way, rather than just to have fun). (This also brings us back to Gus' point of publishing the names of the judges as soon as they're known). It should be made clear though, that anyone hassling a judge about the marks that they've been awarded will not be welcome at further competitions.

If there's any other form of competition with judges, where the judges marks are kept secret, I'd be interested to hear about it. Makes me wonder how/why it all started with secret marks in the first place. You'd think that, following the trend (ice dance, Eurovision song contest etc.), the marks would have just been automatically given out. Who made the initial decision to keep them hidden (which is presumably where following competition organisers have followed on from).

Damn. This was longer than I intended. I hope I didn't bore you too much

Steve

[Bill]

Good reply again Steve and I see what you mean now about the marks helping although all they may do is reinforce what the dancer already knows eg I can dance pretty well to a beat but technically I'm very poor and my spinning is very limited but I don't actually do very much about it.

Might also help to have someone around who can give some advice on those areas you feel need some attention apart from Ceroc ( and other ) workshops.

Also agree absolutely about the marks being posted and it shouldn't really be a problem in the main comp categories and if they appeared on a site a few weeks later ( as the finalists do now) then that could be helpful.

Wonder if any of the current judges would stop judging if their marks were to be published

[TheTramp]

Wonder if any of the current judges would stop judging if their marks were to be published

Well, you'd hope not, because if they're doing the job to the best of their abilities, then they have nothing to worry about.

However, I did hear (from several sources), of one person who has judged in the past, who is alleged to have openly said on several occasions that he or she judges on reputation as much as on performance on the day.

I really, really hope that isn't the case, and that the person who said that was merely practising to take over Gus' role of ODA, or has merely been misquoted (several times).

Steve

[Dance Demon]

Who would want to be a judge eh?

I think that the world of dance is no different from any other pastime or sport. I was a qualified boxing referee and judge for many years, and regardless of how well I felt I had judged a competition, there was always someone who felt different.
Humans by their very nuture are competitive animals. Some more than others, granted, but they will often feel agrieved by a judges decision if it goes against them. However, different judges look for different things. To use the boxing example again, some juges, if the bout is close, go for the more aggressive man, whereas another may prefer the more technically gifted man. Neither is wrong, they just see things differently.
In the case of dance, some judges may look for technical excellence, whilst others may look more at style. Re the judge who goes on reputation, I am sure that there may be others who, in the event of a close contest, would go for the underdog. Things tend to even themselves out I think.
DD

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
<snip>In the case of dance, some judges may look for technical excellence, whilst others may look more at style.

this is why anonimity is not necisaraly a good thing; if you see your marks are poor for technical, you would want to know if that particular judge was one who was more bias towards the technical aspect - the marks from them in their 'field' would hold more weight than others.

Re the judge who goes on reputation, I am sure that there may be others who, in the event of a close contest, would go for the underdog.

Not in dancing I admit, but I have come across a perticular style of judging that seems to reflect this: If the judge considers themselves as experianced as the competitor, they may judge on the moves that they think the competitors were trying instead of what they were actually doing.

I have also seen vested interests work against competitors; the judge knows the move performed and having seen it performed by (or has taught it to) the competitors, knows how it should be done and all the minor flaws will be marked down.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gadget
I have also seen vested interests work against competitors; the judge knows the move performed and having seen it performed by (or has taught it to) the competitors, knows how it should be done and all the minor flaws will be marked down.

Interesting allegation .... where Many moves, especially at advanced level, come from (slight) variation sof other moves, modified to suit the style of the dancing couple or the musical interpretation. I would be dismayed if any judge marked down a couple for performing a move that was not done the 'correct' way ... for example, even Ceroc has changed how the first move has been taught quite significantly over the last 5 years. Given the time available to jusge couples, most judges (unless they have an ulterior motive) will judge the dnacers principlay on their overall musical interpretation and how complex the moves look ..... or do you think otherwise?

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Gadget
this is why anonimity is not necisaraly a good thing; if you see your marks are poor for technical, you would want to know if that particular judge was one who was more bias towards the technical aspect - the marks from them in their 'field' would hold more weight than others.

But you don't need to "name and shame" judges to achieve this - results could simply be posted as "judge 1", "judge 2" etc for all the competitors. That way if one particular judge marks you harshly on technical aspect you'd exoect them to be marking harshly on technical aspect for all/most competitors. That way you'd still find out if it was just your poor technical ability or a harsh judge of technical ability whilst still offering some degree of protection to the judges.

J

[TheTramp]

But you don't need to "name and shame" judges to achieve this

I don't think it's about 'shaming' judges. If they are being paid (I'm assuming that they are) for doing a job, which they are then presumably doing to the best of their ability, why should they be shamed by having the results of their paid employment being published? The only reason for 'shaming' would be if they weren't doing the job to the best of their ability. And I wouldn't even think of suggesting that to be the case.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
If they are being paid (I'm assuming that they are) for doing a job, which they are then presumably doing to the best of their ability, why should they be shamed by having the results of their paid employment being published
Steve

The judges are being paid by the Organisers and so I would suggest that the organisers should be the judge of the 'quality' of the judging. The unfortunate reality is that there are far too many egos in Modern Jive (and that is not confined to the better dancers) and these egos are more than likely to take personal issue with someone who has marked them down.

[TheTramp]

The unfortunate reality is that there are far too many egos in Modern Jive

I'm gonna play at being ODA here....

I'm not sure that Modern Jive differs from any other competative area in this - and from what I hear of the ballroom and possibly salsa 'scenes', which are far more developed in the competition stakes - people who do Modern Jive are, in the main, less likely to be as competative.

However, still in my ODA role, I still feel that if you are going to hold competitions which cost a reasonable amount of money to take part in (the cost of entry, plus the travel, plus the accomodation - and in most cases, the outfits, etc.), and have quite large amounts in prizes, then there should be some feedback on how well you've done. I know that no-one is being forced to attend the competition, and that a lot of people are doing it for the 'fun' element, as well as meeting up with friends from all over the country.

I hope that I'm not giving out the wrong impressions in my arguements in this thread. I do strongly feel that judges marks should be made available - and while I am competing, I would feel the same if I wasn't. If I am ever (as unlikely as that seems) asked to judge any competition, the marks I award will be available to anyone who wants to see them, whether or not they are made public, and I would be willing to discuss why I thought as I did - although, I would not let anyone harass me over it.

I have chosen to attend the competition in Blackpool, totally to have a good time and enjoy myself and see all my friends from around the country who I may only get to see at events like this. While, as previously said, I do strongly believe that the marks should be public, I won't be letting that affect my enjoyment of the day, and while I'm sure that I won't agree with all the judges decisions, the judges decision is final, and that's the end of the story.

I'll shut up now. Probably to huge sighs of relief

Steve

[horsey_dude]

I have a real gripe about the way that competitions are judged (possibly because I have never won anything). Our competitions are often judeged by non cerocing outsiders (possibly to be more impartial) and in my opinion it is often the best looking couples that win, rather than the best dancers, or the ones who do the flashiest moves (never mind timing, rythym, style, interpretation) the look hard to the ignorant but are just boring if they don't suit the music.

As I said this may be sour grapes but I would like to see whether there is any kind of consistancy between judges.