Workshop: Techniques in avoiding injury.

[Gadget]

Do we need one?
Should this be covered in standard workshops?
Are the techniques too "advanced" for beginners to learn?
Are they only applicable once your dancing reaches a certain level?
Should awareness of potential injury be incorporated (more) into classes and beginner moves?

I think that the "Wrong" way to dance can all be related to causing your partner pain. (see this post rather than posting it again. ... oh, and another thread on Avouding Pain might be of relevance)

[Zuhal]

This is very pertinent to me at the moment as I was yanked in December and am still nursing my shoulder a bit.

In the next few months there are several Drop Zone workshops that I am interested in doing.

I now drop (opps) out of a routine class that includes a dip/drop lean because there will always be at least one partner who hurls herself at the floor regardless of the lead, beat or teachers instruction.

Unfortunately I do not trust the promoters selection criteria for these workshops, so unless there is a known dancer or someone with a blue card, the risk of injury is too great to participate.

Any wise words about how to avoid injury would have me as a grateful recipient.

Zuhal

[Simon r]

Originally Posted by Zuhal

This is very pertinent to me at the moment as I was yanked in December and am still nursing my shoulder a bit.

In the next few months there are several Drop Zone workshops that I am interested in doing.

I now drop (opps) out of a routine class that includes a dip/drop lean because there will always be at least one partner who hurls herself at the floor regardless of the lead, beat or teachers instruction.

Unfortunately I do not trust the promoters selection criteria for these workshops, so unless there is a known dancer or someone with a blue card, the risk of injury is too great to participate.

Any wise words about how to avoid injury would have me as a grateful recipient.

Zuhal

Hi Zuhal

Ok ther are not that many girls that will rush in to a drop with some-one they do not know.
If you are attempting to lead a drop then the general principle is assuming
1. You have asked ( would you be prepared to try some drops)
2. Make sure as you lead the drop you have given a good lead so there is no confusion what you are trying to do.
3. Prepare for the drop bring her in to a T position you are the top of the t she is the tail ( she is looking away from you you are looking in to her ear)
4. Her shoulder should be in line with your chest.
5. your feet should be hip width apart.
6.Now attempt the drop but go nice and slow
7.Ladies keep head up that way if there is an accident you land on your bum nothing else.

Keep it small and controlled and never try on a busy dance floor.



|Normally hand out a huge leaflet with do's and don'ts for men and ladies at all workshops i hold

would be interesting who is teaching you without giving safety guide lines.

Hope this helps....
Come and ask if you need more help.

Simon

[LMC]

I don't think I've been in any class where every single one of those safety points has been covered - some, sure, but not all.

I've recently had a right old rant on the taxi thread about Ceroc Essentials.

In a beginners' class, there were several first timers. The teacher did not explain the correct handhold which meant that most of the guys in the line up were gripping. To the extent where I actually scooted up to the stage and asked the teacher nicely if he would cover handhold and "no thumbs" - which he failed to do for the rest of the lesson. Great, we now have a whole set of first-timers who already need to unlearn gripping on with thumbs.

The point is that there should not need to be a separate workshop for avoiding injuries. Safety points should be covered in every lesson or whenever certain moves (like dips) are taught and both men and women encouraged to say something to their partner if they are not following safe procedures. It is incredibly awkward and irritating to say to a first-timer "please keep your thumbs away" and get the reaction "but the teacher didn't say anything".

[Zuhal]

Thats very helpful but you miss my point.

I am not talking about freestyle. I am talking about a standard Intermediate class taught at Modern Jive venues. Move three is a drop.
If the lady has been listening she follows my lead.
In the rotation there is always someone who should not be doing this class or has been so busy chatting that they have not absorbed the teachers instructions.
Therefore they present themselves to me as someone who can cause me injury.
Before the lead they enter the drop:
Choice 1 Catch them to save their dignity= get injured
Choice 2 Let em bounce
Choice 3 Drop out of the class

Or Gadget is asking if anyone would be interested in some tips. I say yes

Zuhal

[Simon r]

Originally Posted by Zuhal

Thats very helpful but you miss my point.

I am not talking about freestyle. I am talking about a standard Intermediate class taught at Modern Jive venues. Move three is a drop.
If the lady has been listening she follows my lead.
In the rotation there is always someone who should not be doing this class or has been so busy chatting that they have not absorbed the teachers instructions.
Therefore they present themselves to me as someone who can cause me injury.
Before the lead they enter the drop:
Choice 1 Catch them to save their dignity= get injured
Choice 2 Let em bounce
Choice 3 Drop out of the class

Or Gadget is asking if anyone would be interested in some tips. I say yes

Zuhal

Ok maybe try this

If you keep your back straight and lower using only your Biceps this will stop any jarring in your back or your shoulder, give negative tension to the lady...

So as she comes forward put the brakes on buy pushing against her hands this will slow her down before she even starts the drop putting you far more in controll.
If you do not feel that you are leading the move it is best to be honest, a subtle hint is maybe to move forward as she starts the move to block her then Say something like would you mind if i lead this slowley and exactly as i want to make sure i get my lead right ..

If persistant be really honest ...

Sorry i did not lead the move and i think i might end up hurting you or myself if you do not allow me to lead the move.

Simon

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Do we need one?
Should this be covered in standard workshops?
Are the techniques too "advanced" for beginners to learn?
Are they only applicable once your dancing reaches a certain level?
Should awareness of potential injury be incorporated (more) into classes and beginner moves?

I can't really see this being commercially viable as a discrete workshop - and I also think that the people who most need it (yankers, premature droppers etc.) wouldn't go on it anyway.

Realistically, I think the most viable option is to make safety and injury-prevention, especially in drop-teaching, a large component of the class / workshop. Teachers talk about safety, but I can't recall seeing one go into "injury / safety" demonstrations. Again, some risk because we don't want to associate ceroc with injuries all the time, but that should be more viable.

How do other sports / dances cover this area? Anyone know?

[Baruch]

Originally Posted by Zuhal

Before the lead they enter the drop:
Choice 1 Catch them to save their dignity= get injured
Choice 2 Let em bounce
Choice 3 Drop out of the class

Has anyone taken Zuhal's Choice 2?

[spindr]

Gadget,

You might like to read:

Dance Technique And Injury Prevention. Justin Howse and Shirley Hancock. A & C Black (Publishers) Limited, 35 Bedford Row, London, WC1R 4JH, UK, 1992. ISBN 0713636017.

It's based around a lot of ballet stuff -- but some of it might cross over.

SpinDr.

Re: Option 2: Not yet. I do option 2a -- I explain that if my follower drops before I lead, then I *will* let them fall (and the floor doesn't look soft ) -- seems to work.

[Baruch]

Originally Posted by spindr

Re: Option 2: Not yet. I do option 2a -- I explain that if my follower drops before I lead, then I *will* let them fall (and the floor doesn't look soft ) -- seems to work.

Maybe I should try that. I've tried options 1 and 3, but both involve me losing out.

(Before anyone asks, I do tell my partners to wait for my lead if they show signs of throwing themselves into drops in class, but some just don't listen and sometimes it's too late by the time I realise they're going to do that.)

[Gadget]

The main reason for this thread is that one of the primary arguments for separating 'intermediate' dancers from 'intermediate/advanced' dancers is that the latter are less likely to cause injury.

I was proposing someone teach things that will help you avoid injury that can be caused by your partner. (Rather than avoid causing it - which should be covered in other workshops)

Eg:
How to avoid the "Gibbon Grip", the "Death Grip", the "Hook grip" and the "Pressure-point Grip".
How to recognise potential 'yankers', disengage before a 'yank', brace for over-zealous impact and move to minimise enthusiastic hauling.
How to lead a blocked dip/drop. How to prepare and slow dips & drops. How to recognise potential dangers from your partner.
Followers how to escape dips/drops/leans. How to wait for a lead and feel a 'trusted connection' before going into one.

Most of the above is about the connection, distance from your partner, preparation and observation.

I am fortunate to say that any injury I have sustained while dancing has been wholey my own fault (and nothing more serious than blisters).
I am unfortunate to say that through my neglect, anticipation or lack of observation I have been the cause of several injuries to my partners Not a fact I am proud of, {in fact am quite ashamed of } but each has heightened my awareness of what went wrong and how to prevent it next time.

Most of the moaning and grumbling about other dancers and potential for "hotshotism" I read on here relates to self-preservation and avoiding injury from poor dancers. However, it seems to me that this is one area that is relatively easily addressed.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Simon r

If you keep your back straight and lower using only your Biceps this will stop any jarring in your back or your shoulder, give negative tension to the lady...

I'm not saying the above is bad advice, but I certainly know people have done this and still been hurt, particularly when the woman "aggressively" pre-empts the drop. As DavidB has said about lifts, you don't need to be strong to do most drops, but if they go wrong, strength makes a big difference in whether you avoid injury or accident. As such, the likes of you and I are possibly a bit over-optimisitic on injury avoidance.

A couple of other comments on teaching:

Things may have changed, but many Ceroc teachers used to teach drops by demonstrating them, and then on the count through, suddenly tell everyone to stop. (e.g. if the "drop" was on 5, they'd count "3...,4..., and stop right there!"). That is far too late to tell someone to stop safely - by then, my weight will already be in motion to be prepared for the drop.

Unless it's absolutely necessary to make the move work, please don't have some complicated spinning entry into any but the simplest drop. It is guaranteed that people will muck up the entry but try to do the drop anyway.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

A couple of other comments on teaching: < SNIP >

I dance in 2 venues. One is nice and safety conscious; the other teaches fancy drops every week, often with a lot of safety points missing, tricky entries etc. Having faced the same problems as Zuhal I eventually went with having a fixed partner for the intermediate class in the less safety conscious one but I stay in rotation at the other venue's intermediate class. My fixed partner also got fed up of being in dangerously led drops so now we take everything nice and gently. Works well.

I realise the whole fixed partner thing isn't everyone's cup of tea though...

Take care,
Christopher