Dips and Drops help please

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

Ok, now when I first started learning these in class I LOVED them, however now for the last few months for some reason I am totally terrified whenever I try to follow them in class or freestyle, what happened?!? I really love them, and think they're so cool and really make dancing fun giving you that extra wee buzz, but until I manage to pull myself out of this rut (or whatever you wanna call it), it'll be no extra fun for Ash Advice, tips, help greatly recieved

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Jazz_Shoes (Ash)

Advice, tips, help greatly recieved

The obvious question is "why are you terrified?" . I'm fond of the expresion "Fear is there to warn us of danger, not to make us afraid". It could be you've got more experience now and you're unconciously picking up on say bad aspects in the lead.

Before I led dips in freestyle, I went through them with two ladies and asked "How did that feel?" They both replied "Safe and secure". There's a grand total of 3 ladies that I do dips on at the moment though I occassionally get told during a dance by other ladies "Dip me". My advice would be to get someone you trust and who's fairly experienced and get them to guide you through say a Safe First Move Dip off the dance floor. Play around with it, try it at different heights, speeds etc. Then try it in freestyle with them when there's lots of space and it's a slow song.

My other advice is to look at all the fun ways dips and drops can go wrong and figure out what you'd do. I once led myself through a double spin entry flamenco drop crash into the floor to see the ladies' perspective. There is a cushion roll out technique that works, but you'd want to go and ask poeple who do aikido or judo about it.

Hope that helps
Christopher

[Barry Shnikov]

Originally Posted by Ghost

I occasionally get told during a dance by other ladies "Dip me".

Do they make big cow eyes at you too? Time to take upstairs, perhaps...

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov

Do they make big cow eyes at you too? Time to take upstairs, perhaps...

Now that you mention it...

See ladies - proof that guys are completely oblivious to subtlety

Christopher

[Andreas]

Make sure you are SLIDING down the guy when you are being put into a drop. There should be no gap between lead and follow in a dip or drop unless you are looking a swinging drops. Otherwise you risk that you pull the guy over or swing against his legs, literally sweeping him off his feet

So for as long as you are REALLY close to the guy during a drop there is little to fear as it also provides you with the means of influencing the speed of the drop/dip.

[LMC]

I sympathise Jazz - I am not good with drops in freestyle, especially with guys I don't know/trust.

For leaders: if you are dancing with someone you don't know, and don't want to "spoil the moment" by actually asking, then please don't go straight into a ballroom drop - start with a lean. If that goes OK, then a gentle dip/seducer ... and work up from there - you get the picture.

Jazz - the main thing for us is to make sure we retain control of our weight - you do not have to lean/dip any further than *you* feel comfortable with - if for some reason you are not close enough, or otherwise don't feel safe with a lead, then "don't go"! - and if they are behaving particularly badly - trying to throw me around, then I will also tell them that I would rather they didn't!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Jazz_Shoes (Ash)

Ok, now when I first started learning these in class I LOVED them, however now for the last few months for some reason I am totally terrified whenever I try to follow them in class or freestyle, what happened?!?

Probably all the scare stories you heard on the forum...

Originally Posted by Jazz_Shoes (Ash)

I really love them, and think they're so cool and really make dancing fun giving you that extra wee buzz, but until I manage to pull myself out of this rut (or whatever you wanna call it), it'll be no extra fun for Ash Advice, tips, help greatly recieved

Errr.. don't do them if you don't want to?

I've managed to survive so far without doing drops in freestyle - I have neither the height nor weight to do them well in my opinion. There's no compulsion. And your assertion that you love them is contradicted by your statement that you're terrified of them

So don't do them unless you want to - there are loads of other things you can do.

[Alice]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Errr.. don't do them if you don't want to?

I've managed to survive so far without doing drops in freestyle - I have neither the height nor weight to do them well in my opinion. There's no compulsion. And your assertion that you love them is contradicted by your statement that you're terrified of them

So don't do them unless you want to - there are loads of other things you can do.

But isn't the problem that she has only been terrified of them lately?

(Did you have a bad experience btw? Sometimes that's enough to switch the balance.)

My advice is to find someone you enjoy dancing with, and who you trust and get them to put you slowly into a very shallow dip while you hold your own weight. Get used to the feel of holding yourself up- use your legs, hold your tummy in and keep yourself firm (not all floppy which makes you heavier for the guy). The aim is to be holding up as much of your own weight as possible*. As Ads suggested, start with a simple lean, then work up to a small, safe dip. You should be able to tell if it doesn't feel "right". If it feels ok, try a slightly deeper dip, and then try adding it in during a freestyle- still with someone you feel confident and safe with. If not, get a teacher to have a look to check the technique or see if it works with a male teacher leading you. In the meantime, it might be an idea to tell the other people you're dancing with not to lead dips or drops on you- this will give you a chance to build up your confidence/trust again

Good luck!!

* I think- can someone correct me if this is wrong?

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Make sure you are SLIDING down the guy when you are being put into a drop. There should be no gap between lead and follow in a dip or drop unless you are looking a swinging drops. Otherwise you risk that you pull the guy over or swing against his legs, literally sweeping him off his feet

Worth noting that you don't want to go too far the other way either. In all the drop positions I can think of, the guy is also really vulnerable to being pushed over backwards by the lady, because of the position of his feet. So be careful you don't overdo getting close and actually bump him over. It's surprising how little force you actually need to do this and how hellacious it is for the guy to recover, especially if he's reached the point where his weight is on his left foot, as he then ideally needs to get back up onto the ball of said foot to pivot and get his right foot behind. Otherwise things can get wrenched

Another tip to practice, is to dip yourself on your own. Then do exactly the same thing with a guy - he holds none of your weight and is just there to make it look right. This lets you safely iron out the errors and gives you practice in stopping a dip. Slowly build up the amount of transfer of weight from you to the guy.
Take care,
Christopher

[Piglet]

Or... do a dip/drop workshop. There's one coming up in Aberdeen at the end of this month... but you might be better doing one that's in Glasgow as you'll get to know better which guys have learned the techniques properly and know you have as well - and then you can keep practising with you favourite ones.

Hope you find a solution that works for you

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by LMC

For leaders: if you are dancing with someone you don't know, and don't want to "spoil the moment" by actually asking, then please don't go straight into a ballroom drop - start with a lean. If that goes OK, then a gentle dip/seducer ... and work up from there - you get the picture.

What I try to do is make the dip/drop an invitation: get into the correct position and place a supporting hand on the back (or wherever it should be). Use this hand to get feedback on how much the follower is trusting themselves to me and equal the resistance. The other hand and 'pull' I get from the follower lets me know how deep they want/trust me to go. {I can also use this supporting hand to prevent a dip/drop if something untoward happens.}

I can use the same initial position and movements to lead a beginner so they simply 'settle' on the back foot,... or a more trusting soul that I can lunge out with and follow them to within a breath of the floor. The key is in the preperation and 'listening' to your partner through your hands.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Worth noting that you don't want to go too far the other way either. In all the drop positions I can think of, the guy is also really vulnerable to being pushed over backwards by the lady, because of the position of his feet. So be careful you don't overdo getting close and actually bump him over. It's surprising how little force you actually need to do this and how hellacious it is for the guy to recover, especially if he's reached the point where his weight is on his left foot, as he then ideally needs to get back up onto the ball of said foot to pivot and get his right foot behind. Otherwise things can get wrenched

Good points.

Another tip to practice, is to dip yourself on your own. Then do exactly the same thing with a guy - he holds none of your weight and is just there to make it look right. This lets you safely iron out the errors and gives you practice in stopping a dip. Slowly build up the amount of transfer of weight from you to the guy.
Take care,
Christopher

Now my opinion on this one is VERY ambivalent. Generally I agree that a follower should take a lot of their own weight in a drop. However, particularly in the UK I notice A LOT of the ladies slide down on their supporting foot to achieve this. The trouble with that is that it changes the position where the drop has been projected to take place by about a foot length to the side, which throws the guys off balance easily. So when you practice drops PLEASE note that the idea is NOT to sit on your foot, it is strong thighs that are required.

[PretzelMeister]

Originally Posted by Jazz_Shoes (Ash)

Ok, now when I first started learning these in class I LOVED them, however now for the last few months for some reason I am totally terrified whenever I try to follow them in class or freestyle, what happened?!? I really love them, and think they're so cool and really make dancing fun giving you that extra wee buzz, but until I manage to pull myself out of this rut (or whatever you wanna call it), it'll be no extra fun for Ash Advice, tips, help greatly recieved

Hi Ash,

As per Ghost's reply, suspect that you are totally terrified because you have been led into a few drops and they haven't gone too smoothly and left you thinking: "Sh1t! - That was close. Nearly on my head there!" or something of that ilk.

So, IMHO, seeing as you used to like doing drops and think you would like 'em again, are to:

• practice a few simple dips / drops with someone (a) who has half a scooby about what they're doing, and (b) you trust not to (really!) drop you. This should both build your own confidence plus they may be able to give you feedback on anything YOU may not being doing correctly.
• in freestyle, if you are not comfortable being dipped/ dropped and suspect the guy may even think about trying it, make it clear to them at the start of the dance that you don't won't to be dipped / dropped, or, if you do, that perhaps a bit of a verbal warning beforehand might be appreciated.
• as Piglet suggests, get along to a dips 'n' drops workshop.

So much of it is confidence. I think we leads have got the easy bit as far as dips n drops are concerned - we run the far lesser risk of getting hurt. Respect to all you followers out there who let us dip and drop you!

Good Luck!


PM

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Now my opinion on this one is VERY ambivalent. Generally I agree that a follower should take a lot of their own weight in a drop. However, particularly in the UK I notice A LOT of the ladies slide down on their supporting foot to achieve this. The trouble with that is that it changes the position where the drop has been projected to take place by about a foot length to the side, which throws the guys off balance easily. So when you practice drops PLEASE note that the idea is NOT to sit on your foot, it is strong thighs that are required.

Can you explain what you mean by "slide down on their supporting foot"? Is it the same as "bum-to-heel", or something different? And what are you saying they should do instead?

[Saxylady]

Originally Posted by Gadget

What I try to do is make the dip/drop an invitation: get into the correct position and place a supporting hand on the back (or wherever it should be). Use this hand to get feedback on how much the follower is trusting themselves to me and equal the resistance. The other hand and 'pull' I get from the follower lets me know how deep they want/trust me to go. {I can also use this supporting hand to prevent a dip/drop if something untoward happens.}

I can use the same initial position and movements to lead a beginner so they simply 'settle' on the back foot,... or a more trusting soul that I can lunge out with and follow them to within a breath of the floor. The key is in the preperation and 'listening' to your partner through your hands.

That's just how I like it!

I do wish someone would get that technique through to the members of the Tip-Her-Up-Quick Brigade!

It's a nightmare being small - I'm thinking of getting a T-shirt with "Fragile, This Way Up" on it.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Can you explain what you mean by "slide down on their supporting foot"? Is it the same as "bum-to-heel", or something different? And what are you saying they should do instead?

"slide down on their supporting foot" = "bum-to-heel"

The followers should hold MOST of their weight but by no means all of it. The weight should be a tad behind the foot. Firstly the guy has aboslutely no means of 'rescueing' the lady if somebody else charges in and she is sitting on her foot. And just as importantly the change in position by sitting down on the foot pulls the guy to the side. Add to that that body tension goes down the drain or, more precisely, isn't actually developed because the follower's aim is to sit down rather than hold herself in suspense.

I have never seen anybody do a ballroom drop as tidy (and powerful) as my former dance partner, hence will not expect ladies to actually reach that stage. However, sitting down is certainly the wrong approach.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Good points.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Andreas

Now my opinion on this one is VERY ambivalent. Generally I agree that a follower should take a lot of their own weight in a drop. However, particularly in the UK I notice A LOT of the ladies slide down on their supporting foot to achieve this. The trouble with that is that it changes the position where the drop has been projected to take place by about a foot length to the side, which throws the guys off balance easily. So when you practice drops PLEASE note that the idea is NOT to sit on your foot, it is strong thighs that are required.

Yep. I decided to keep things simple, but as the cat's out of the bag now.

I still recommend learning to do them the 'wrong' way first for a couple of reasons. One if you don't have strong abs and thighs and good balance, it's going to restrict what you can do if you use the proper technique. Two, practicing in freestyle, I think, is safer at the beginning if you're treating dips as poses rather than dips. Amir's got some nice pose moves on his dvd which are great alternatives to drops in crowded space. Personally as a rule of thumb before doing a drop I want a situation where if I just laid down on the floor for 5 beats I'd be confident that no-one would step on me. So just do micro-dips supporting your own weight and pay attention to what's going on around you.

But once you're more confident with dips and drops, there's a whole variety of subtlties to play with - momentum, tension, faking freezes etc. Worth knowing they exist so you can go look for them, but personally I'd do it later.

Take care,
Christopher

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Thanks

Yep. I decided to keep things simple, but as the cat's out of the bag now.

I still recommend learning to do them the 'wrong' way first for a couple of reasons. One if you don't have strong abs and thighs and good balance, it's going to restrict what you can do if you use the proper technique. Two, practicing in freestyle, I think, is safer at the beginning if you're treating dips as poses rather than dips. Amir's got some nice pose moves on his dvd which are great alternatives to drops in crowded space. Personally as a rule of thumb before doing a drop I want a situation where if I just laid down on the floor for 5 beats I'd be confident that no-one would step on me. So just do micro-dips supporting your own weight and pay attention to what's going on around you.

But once you're more confident with dips and drops, there's a whole variety of subtlties to play with - momentum, tension, faking freezes etc. Worth knowing they exist so you can go look for them, but personally I'd do it later.

Take care,
Christopher

I can see where you come from but can't agree with you. It is A LOT harder to 'unlearn' bad habits than it is to learn it correctly from the start.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Andreas

I can see where you come from but can't agree with you. It is A LOT harder to 'unlearn' bad habits than it is to learn it correctly from the start.

Sadly yes. Normally I'd be staunchly against advocating this sort of thing. It's purely the safety factor involved, especially at Ceroc. I'd rather the moves were learnt safely and 'wrong' and then the bad habits unlearnt all in a safe controlled way.

Of course I'd ultimately prefer that dips and drops were taught correctly, one on one, in a safe environment and gradually and carefully augmented into dancing at each person's natural rate.

Take care,
Christopher