Dancing with ladies taking large steps

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

If you're experienced enough / good enough, you can choose to take large steps of course - and it can be good to do that for emphasis, for style or other reasons. Like all these things, you can bend or break the rules, as long as you know what you're doing.

I am soooo profoundly bad at leading ladies who take large steps / travel all the time. For the first time I came close to just giving up, stopping the dance halfway through and apologising to one lady recently - she's a great dancer , I just could not figure out how to lead her. Had similar problems with another lady recently.

Just to be clear, we're talking dancing with someone who's moving to beyond what feels like the limits of my full extension with a lot of momentum.

I've tried
Taking a step after them as they travel, but that feels wrong.
Travelling with them - ditto
Dancing beginner's moves - no good, anything they can step out to they do.
Bracing myself in position to let them dance with a lead in a stable position - comically bad
Just dancing - terrible
Dancing close moves - works, but I'd have to keep dancing close moves and as soon as I lead anything else they go off into orbit.

Help!

Christopher

[Andreas]

As so often, my opinion may be a bit extreme. But essentially what I believe is that people (leads and followers) who take large steps deprive themselves of using their body because the time is taking up catching up with their feet. Taking small steps does make a dancer more responsive, tidier and, very importantly, a more complete dancer. More complete because they actually have the time to include their entire body bin the motion. Taking a large step more or less puts the emphasis on your legs, your knees to be precise. The rest of the body has to wait until it has caught up with the leading foot.

As DJ stated in that quote, you can and should vary the step size, i.e. take a large step every now and again for emphasis. Though in general short steps are the better choice.

I know how you feel, I personally don't enjoy dancing with people who take large steps anywhere near as much as with those that take short steps. In my case it is not as much a problem of leading them into the position I want them in, which I guess is a matter of experience and the amount of travel that I do. But people who take large steps reduce the amount of speed changes that one can do for musical interpretation because they are ALWAYS LATE because their weight is to far back.

If you are just struggle with moves try to dance in 'Cuban Salsa Style', ie close rotating and grinding moves. They will struggle doing large steps. And if they do large steps the centrifugal force will teach them quickly that it was the wrong choice.

So don't get frustrated, find counter measures by thinking of what is required to do what they do and cutting it down.

[David Bailey]

Blimey, when did I say that?

Anyway:

Originally Posted by Ghost

I am soooo profoundly bad at leading ladies who take large steps / travel all the time.

Sometimes followers will take large steps no matter what - and short of holding them in a basket all the time, there's not a lot you can do about it apart from saying "Can you please take smaller steps?", which may not be received well.

One possible alternative - do lots of moves which minimize the amount of actual big back steps the lady takes. Teapots, walkarounds, slow combs, that sort of thing - anything that requires wiggling, in other words.

Another possible is use their large step-backs - follow them, with a mambo-style step forward. That way, you're never too far away from them.

[Ghost]

[quote=DavidJames]Blimey, when did I say that?
"If you could tell a beginner One Thing..." thread - it's derived from your first post advising take small steps, but the actual quote is from post No 14

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Sometimes followers will take large steps no matter what - and short of holding them in a basket all the time, there's not a lot you can do about it apart from saying "Can you please take smaller steps?", which may not be received well.

Much as I appreciate what you and Andreas are saying (and indeed I've used this approach when a dance floor is crowded and the lady is over-enthudiastic) I can see that there is the potential for a superb dance the way the lady wants to dance. Epic even Think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - obviously I'll need half the dance floor, but that's another problem. So I'm not looking for a way to shut them down, I just want to be able to dance with them.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Another possible is use their large step-backs - follow them, with a mambo-style step forward. That way, you're never too far away from them.

Doesn't feel right I think there's supposed to be distance between us to emphasise her moves?

More ideas please

Thanks
Christopher

[DavidB]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Help!

Let go.

It helps to aim them at an empty bit of floor first - for the sake of everyone else.

[Whitebeard]

I think there's a happy median here.

The dances I most like are those where there is the minimum tension/compression and the maximum response. Moving as one. Idyllic.

Those I like least are where the lady is unresponsive, tight, heavy, unwilling to 'open out'. In these circumstances it really is hard to establish any sort of meaningful and pleasant 'connection', it becomes very work indeed and, mercifully (once past the raw beginner stage), there are few ladies of this persuasion.

Less problematic are the ladies who take large steps. I probably belong in that league myself. Of necessity this leads higher levels of tension and compression, but, at least, there is a connection and the chance, by example, to bring this down to manageable proportions.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DavidB

Let go.

It helps to aim them at an empty bit of floor first - for the sake of everyone else.

Ok no smilies, you're serious? I've been considering this. It's an obvious solution and arguably couldn't make matters any worse; I'm just concerned that if it's not the 'right' answer and she's not expecting it, the momentum's gonna be a kick in the teeth to ride out without a counterpoint connection from me On the other hand if her idea is to whirl past me, let go, style it out then reconnect, contrast with a few close moves to really build up momentum, etc, yeah that could be pretty dramatic.

If however you're suggesting this as more of a chastisement, that's not what I'm looking to do - I'd rather simply not dance with a lady than put her in harm's way, make her look foolish etc.

One of the ladies I mentioned was a beginner though, so I don't think this is the right answer for her. Great natural dancer. Amazing her first week as the moves taught were all close. Second week, bigger moves, my lead went to hell in a handbasket. When I finally went back to smaller move for the finish - silky smooth, she can dance.

I'm fine with everyone else.

Christopher

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Of necessity this leads higher levels of tension and compression, but, at least, there is a connection and the chance, by example, to bring this down to manageable proportions.

Ok how do I do it if I don't want to bring it down to "manageable proportions" and just let the lady move as she wants? You're saying I need more tension in my lead? Ok that makes sense. So I just dance normally but up the tension in my lead? That may be part of it but there's more. I know that trick from dancing with taxi dancers.

It really feels like I've got the distancing wrong, maybe the timing, but I can't figure out how?

Any thoughts,
Christopher

[LMC]

If one of the ladies is a beginner, then maybe ask one of the taxi dancers to bring up "small steps" in the review class - "catch her quick" before she goes to intermediate and the habit is set in.

I've also occasionally asked the teacher at venues to make a "general comment" if there's more than one or two leads who seem to have the same bad habit.

[tsh]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Ok no smilies, you're serious? I've been considering this. It's an obvious solution and arguably couldn't make matters any worse; I'm just concerned that if it's not the 'right' answer and she's not expecting it, the momentum's gonna be a kick in the teeth to ride out without a counterpoint connection from me On the other hand if her idea is to whirl past me, let go, style it out then reconnect, contrast with a few close moves to really build up momentum, etc, yeah that could be pretty dramatic.

Well, if she wants to go, let her. Or don't dance with her. Or, use 2 hands and stop her being creative. If you chose not to dance with her, try just suggesting that she takes smaller steps

If you want to try and change the way she is following, keep your arms more bent maybe - but it sounds like you might just have very different styles.

One of the ladies I mentioned was a beginner though, so I don't think this is the right answer for her. Great natural dancer. Amazing her first week as the moves taught were all close. Second week, bigger moves, my lead went to hell in a handbasket.

You started by saying that this was a problem with someone you thought was a great dancer - not someone who had potential... It might be reasonable to suggest that she should stay closer/avoid opening up/moves slower - but equally it might be worth ignoring in the hope that she works this out for herself, since there's a chance that it's only with your lead that she does this.

Sean

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by LMC

I've also occasionally asked the teacher at venues to make a "general comment" if there's more than one or two leads who seem to have the same bad habit.

Which is why you're a considerate taxi dancer

However I've only run into maybe 5 ladies doing this over the last year. It's by no means common. Thing is they were all good dancers. At first I thought it was just a case of them being too good and I just couldn't lead at that level, but now I've had the same problem with an intermediate and a beginner the only common link is the style of dancing. It's obviously deliberate on their part; the beginner was using it to put her style on the bigger moves. I'm having trouble with the concept that given the quality of the rest of their dancing, this is wrong. I just can't figure out how to lead it.

Any ladies here dance big? Any suggestions on ideally how you'd like the guy to lead if you had an empty dance floor?

Thanks
Christopher

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by tsh

You started by saying that this was a problem with someone you thought was a great dancer - not someone who had potential...

Sorry, I'm thinking of about 5 ladies and just used two extremes as examples - one's an experienced dancer, one's a beginner. It's the style of dancing I'm having the problem with.

Originally Posted by tsh

but it sounds like you might just have very different styles.

I'd agree with that. Hence I'm trying to work out how to dance with this style. By the same token though, I am trying to work out how to dance with this style rather than at it. So I'm not looking for ways to hack it down to fit my style of lead. I'm looking for a way to adjust my lead so I can dance with it.

Take care,
Christopher

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Ghost, in first post

Just to be clear, we're talking dancing with someone who's moving to beyond what feels like the limits of my full extension with a lot of momentum.

My immediate reaction to that was "yanker".

It's very considerate of you to think how you can adapt fully. But rather than risking a shoulder injury, perhaps you do need to just do whatever works. Yes, it's up to the lead to make the follower look good. But the follower has a responsibility to maintain a connection to the lead. If they are moving even "to" the limits of your full extension, let alone beyond it, then that must have a negative effect on the connection.

In other words "it's not all your fault" - or all your responsibility. Sometimes, the first time you dance with someone, it doesn't go that well until you get used to each other's styles. Occasionally you find someone you just never really "connect" with properly and always find hard work to dance with - even that can improve over a longer time period! So perhaps your dances with these ladies will improve over time.

In the meantime, perhaps positive affirmation will help, along the lines of "I feel like the connection between us is much better/I lead better when you take smaller steps".

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Ghost

I am soooo profoundly bad at leading ladies who take large steps / travel all the time. ~ Just to be clear, we're talking dancing with someone who's moving to beyond what feels like the limits of my full extension with a lot of momentum.

What's the problem? Just say "Go Go Gadget Arms"... well it works for me

The main problem with followers who step back too far tends to be that they try and take your arm with them - there are lots of threads about "yankers" and advice on them. (Actually, that's a lie: there are lots of threads complaining about them with a little advice )

I've tried
Taking a step after them as they travel, but that feels wrong.
Travelling with them - ditto

feels wrong? Pity - I would say that this is the more 'fluid' option.

What tends to happen if you are doing this in order to compensate for the follower travelling too far is that you lead them further away and take a step forward.
Many combat arts have exercises to move yourself in order to maintain/control the distance between yourself and your opponent - What you need to do is move yourself in order to maintain that same 'neutral' distance and simply lead as normal.

Another common mistake is 'reacting' to your partner's step back rather than moving with them. They start to move out of your 'comfortable leading distance', so you start to move in to maintain it - and the time lag between the two makes it awkward and disjointed.
If you make a deliberate effort to step onto your (mirrored) foot at the same time as your partner, then simply adjusting where that step is a lot easier than starting and stopping.

Dancing beginner's moves - no good, anything they can step out to they do.
Bracing myself in position to let them dance with a lead in a stable position - comically bad
Just dancing - terrible

You can 'force' the follower not to go so big, but it will be a battle; you need to use strength to lead moves a fraction early so that you have time to absorb the momentum and inertia - and this is dangerous for both partners. Especially since your partner will probably be almost dancing ahead of the beat (they need to to cover the ground in time )
But if you don't want to compromise your own movements and way of dancing, or want to physically teach the follower, it can be an option. {not one I would recommend} It generally doesn’t take too long before you can loosen off the rains

Or go to the other extreme as DavidB suggested; beyond your comfortable leading distance, simply let the contact break. Keep the movements of the lead going and "shadow dance" the next bit until they catch up.
The lead 'breaks' for me about one in three dances - normally when I anticipate incorrectly - but it works: I have successfully led several beginners using this and they tend to learn quite quickly.

Dancing close moves - works, but I'd have to keep dancing close moves and as soon as I lead anything else they go off into orbit.

You're not really dancing close then; you're simply holding on to your partner to contain them.
Try going from this and leading the moves with your hands as close to your own body/hips as you can (or even behind/to the side opposite your partner slightly): This will keep the follower close and give you your arm's reach of 'buffer' before having to try anything else. When they have the positioning, gradually lead the same moves slightly further away.

I also agree with the suggestions that Taxis/Teachers should breach the subject of distance if it is happening quite often. {Actually, they should probably talk about it anyway }

[Donna]

[

QUOTE=Andreas]As so often, my opinion may be a bit extreme. But essentially what I believe is that people (leads and followers) who take large steps deprive themselves of using their body because the time is taking up catching up with their feet.

This it true. Taking large steps does take up more time so if choosing to do big steps, I recommend putting a LOT more energy into it, otherwise it should be small steps most of the time. Depends on the lead though. If he is one that concentrates so much on himself, and is not aware of the where the lady is being positioned, then it could be that he has taken a big step and then tries to lead the lady into a first move for e.g..of course then, she has a long way to go!

The rest of the body has to wait until it has caught up with the leading foot.

The body should move over the foot at the same time. Tis called projecting!

As DJ stated in that quote, you can and should vary the step size, i.e. take a large step every now and again for emphasis. Though in general short steps are the better choice.

This is what a DJ WOULD be good at as they know their music and would know what moves suit each part of the music.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Gadget

What's the problem? Just say "Go Go Gadget Arms"... well it works for me

Good points , I’m going to need some time to think them through.

In the mean time I spent lunchtime dancing with a post in a disused tennis court, trying to fill the space. I danced the follow in this style and it feels right. It’s balanced, lyrical, fluid. But put in the post (waist height to represent my hand) as a stop point and yikes! I tried varying the distance and found all the fun things I’ve found previously – it really does feel lousy.

But this came to me. If you dance say an octopus as taught in beginners class, it’s linear. So at the end of the extension, it’s pretty much a stop-start move as the lady reverses direction. I smooth it out with some curvature, but In this case, there’s just too much momentum for that to work (picture a car going round a corner way too fast). So I think for this style the whole thing needs to be more circular and in constant motion and rotation like aikido. Rather than being on the same line at the end of the extensions I need to be off to the side and in motion. That varies the tangential length between us and provided I keep the whole move in rotation, the momentum never has to stop, though I can vary it by changing the radius at which I’m leading the moves during the non-extension part. Likewise because of wacky physics equations, as long as the movements are circular there’s always acceleration and momentum. Likewise the whole tangential thing lets me give varying degrees of tension whilst giving the same amount of tension.

Thoughts and refinements welcomed

Christopher

[Tessalicious]

Originally Posted by Andreas

As DJ stated in that quote...

Originally Posted by Donna

This is what a DJ WOULD be good at as they know their music and would know what moves suit each part of the music.

Ahem, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but DJ isn't a DJ...

[Ghost]