Advice needed please!

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by Frankie_4711

So many questions - sorry, but please help! I’m confused!!

hello Frankie
Yes it is confusing isn't it?
I was really lucky when I was intruduced to blues mainly because the female safety aspects were emphased without making me feeling alarmed.
I was shown how to put my hand on their shoulder between them and me so that I could use it as leverage to move them away, how although the dance is very personal to say thank you and to move on. Two dances is nice, three is flirting, four and you are serious....
Also some guys are not their to dance but to experience intimacy, and to exploit it if they can. A weekender is ideal for this and blues can offer a legitimate opportunity
For what it's worth both men and women have difficulty in this area, sometimes when we discover something new we are particularly exposed and the people who guide us through this are very valuable and can keep us safe. (Thank you to my guides. You know who you are, and you have always looked after me).
I think that you found a form of expression that suited you and being "new" you expressed your self without self consciousness. That's beautiful. If you had had people around you who knew you they would have protected you in that discovery. As it was they didn't understand what it was you were expressing as quite understandably experienced it personally and felt rejected when they realised that it was about YOU not about THEM
Guys have feelings too and they must have felt upset
When I dance I often loose myself, maybe you did too but we do have a responsibility to be clear about what it is we are expressing, a sense of self or a sense of desire.. Sometimes the two are very close, but we do need to be clear when a dance is a dance and when it is over. Maybe two is good three is bad four and your married is a good rule of thumb.
Enjoy your dancing, and enjoy the sense of self that it gives you, I'd love to meet you sound so very expressive

[RogerR]

Jive and Blues are just places in the real world, there will always be a mix of singles and attatched people some hunting harder than others! It's perfectly fair to get to know others when you are at a dance, What's NOT fair either way is to hit on someone without their consent.

Probably a reasoned option (well I think it is!) is to break hold after a couple of dances, If you want another then sip a drink and ask, or take a break talk to him/her then try to dance again. That way the introductions are made before the embarassment.

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Don't let those men make you wrong. All you were doing was dancing. What they were doing was expecting more than a dance. They were wrong, you were right. Don't feel bad that you're off their shopping list - dance with me, I'm married too*.

*which may come as a surprise to the people who think I'm gay

Andy In your previous life you INVENTED gay - and you wont let us forget it. To me, you'll always be a very kind man and I won't let you forget that!

BTW

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by DianaS

Andy In your previous life you INVENTED gay - and you wont let us forget it.

No, in that previous life I invented CAMP - and it was stolen by a bunch of queens There's no reason on earth why you should be gay to be camp, but for some reason the two are linked. I say be proud to be camp, there's nothing wrong with liking musical theatre, admiring Kylie/Dietrich and dancing in a way that rubs your inner thighs together

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by DianaS

Two dances is nice, three is flirting, four and you are serious....

Nah, it's still just a dance.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DianaS

Two dances is nice, three is flirting, four and you are serious....

Opps No-one told me this. I'm gonna have to apologise to quite a few boyfriends and husbands.
Um dare I ask, what's five mean?

Originally Posted by jivecat

Nah, it's still just a dance.

Take care,
Christopher

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DianaS

When I dance I often loose myself, maybe you did too but we do have a responsibility to be clear about what it is we are expressing, a sense of self or a sense of desire.. Sometimes the two are very close, but we do need to be clear

Never thought about it that way and I think that's very helpful. Expressing a sense of self or a sense of desire. Hmmm. And yes, sometimes the two do overlap, and when they do we might need to be guarded about expressing the 'desire'. And of course there is room for misunderstanding, hence the need for clarity.

I was talking with one partner in tango tonight about how tango is a dance of passion and that is expressed when dancing as part of the connection. When both partners understand it is part of the dance, there is more freedom to express it, without misunderstanding.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by DianaS

we do have a responsibility to be clear about what it is we are expressing, a sense of self or a sense of desire.. Sometimes the two are very close, but we do need to be clear when a dance is a dance and when it is over.

I suppose I see blues dancing as play-acting- I might be expressing something that's close to a sense of desire, but in an impersonal kind of way. As with any form of acting, it might be informed by genuine feelings or experience, but it's still essentially "not real". I hope that's clear (as mud).

The experience of physically and mentally sharing the music is, for me, what makes a wonderful dance; it is very powerful and is what makes dancing so pleasurable and addictive. Am I alone in thinking this?

But a dance is still just a dance.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I was talking with one partner in tango tonight about how tango is a dance of passion and that is expressed when dancing as part of the connection. When both partners understand it is part of the dance, there is more freedom to express it, without misunderstanding.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by DianaS

hello Frankie
Yes it is confusing isn't it?

~ SNIP ~

Enjoy your dancing, and enjoy the sense of self that it gives you, I'd love to meet you sound so very expressive

Fully agree .... this follows my perspective as closely as blues itself!

For me, all dancing is all about physical (not sexual) relationship and interraction.

Over time physical raport generally builds between regular dance partners. Very occasionally, that physical rapport is instant or as near as dammit. Sometimes, it simply just doesn't happen.

Again, from my perspective, women (in general) have a clear boundary between physical and sexual, whereas men (in general) don't. Either that or quite different perspectives.

Therein lies what I see as the crux of the problem whever men and women interract physically.

Final disclaimer: Clearly this is certainly not the case for everyone, however it seems to mostly fit the bill from my perspective {either that or my perspective has altered in order to encompass it!!}

[Frankie_4711]

Some very interesting and thought-provoking opinions and suggestions, all of which I shall take to Brean with me, and hopefully be more successful in my goal this time!!

Jivecat - I do understand where you're coming from with the acting theory.

DianaS - I'm looking forward to meeting as many of you guys as possible! (in fact, looking at the Storm pics, I know I already have met/danced with some of you!)

And Andy - you're absolutely right - there's nothing wrong with being straight and camp as hell!! Looking forward to that dance even more now!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by jivecat

I suppose I see blues dancing as play-acting- I might be expressing something that's close to a sense of desire, but in an impersonal kind of way. As with any form of acting, it might be informed by genuine feelings or experience, but it's still essentially "not real". I hope that's clear (as mud).

Playing, acting, performing, expressing the music and the moment - yes its all of those.

But (largely theoretical question here) there is still the potential on occasion of crossing over to 'real' isn't there? (Or of course of being 'real' if dancing with your husband/wife/partner etc.) So how would anyone know the difference? Perhaps that's why duration of dancing time is taken as some sort of indication? Problem is that it not the same for everyone (as in the case of Frankie's question at the start of this thread). Is there any 'ettiquette' for this?

(Not that I'm often kept up for many dances in a row by partners for any reason, dancing or otherwise, there are always plenty of other equally/more suitable partners for them to dance with which is just fine. Any time I have I've been able to work out if its out of any 'extra' interest by verbal clues like Frankie found - 'do you have a boyfriend?' type questions. But I would still like to know, for future reference.)

Originally Posted by jivecat

The experience of physically and mentally sharing the music is, for me, what makes a wonderful dance; it is very powerful and is what makes dancing so pleasurable and addictive. Am I alone in thinking this?

No - for me that sharing is the connection, mentally and physically, that makes it wonderful for me too. With poor connection the guy can be a fabulous dancer but I won't enjoy the dance half as much.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Lynn

But (largely theoretical question here) there is still the potential on occasion of crossing over to 'real' isn't there? (Or of course of being 'real' if dancing with your husband/wife/partner etc.) So how would anyone know the difference?

On the few occasions it's crossed over to "real" for me I've resolutely ignored it- it's actually a d*mned nuisance & is a distraction from the dancing!
I think the situation for well-established couples is slightly different from people who are in a, um, pre-potential-relationship phase as it is a known quantity with no uncertainties. For example, they could be open about the "realness".

Any time I have I've been able to work out if its out of any 'extra' interest by verbal clues like Frankie found - 'do you have a boyfriend?' type questions. But I would still like to know, for future reference.)

Yup, even I'm not so dim that I miss noticing that cue!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by jivecat

On the few occasions it's crossed over to "real" for me I've resolutely ignored it- it's actually a d*mned nuisance & is a distraction from the dancing!

Mmm, very distracting...

Originally Posted by jivecat

Yup, even I'm not so dim that I miss noticing that cue!

I'm improving, I'm usually pretty dim in that regard (I have always had a lot of male friends so don't tend to 'read into' things unless its very obvious) and I still wouldn't necessarily always pick up even on that one. (They could just be making conversation...)

[LMC]

Originally Posted by jivecat

On the few occasions it's crossed over to "real" for me I've resolutely ignored it- it's actually a d*mned nuisance & is a distraction from the dancing!

Now, if it were only mutual, that would be different...

[DianaS]

Okay I need some advice.

Occasionally when I 'm dancing the connection becomes almost too much, almost but not quite uncomfortable. But exquisite. At the end of the dance I sometimes turn around and walk off if I don't know the guy and I've realised that it must seem very rude or abrupt.

Other times when I feel more assured, I kiss them on the cheek or thank them warmly. This form of closure seems quite acceptable, the kiss or the thanks are well received and we seperate. These people I feel safe with, its those who I feel less secure with that I tend to turn tail on!

Fortuneately, the abrupt endings are fewer than they used to be but I'm wondering when I feel exposed and unsure how I can manage this more elegantly?

Lots of people have to handle happy endings to lovely dances, can you give me a few pointers please?

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DianaS

Fortuneately, the abrupt endings are fewer than they used to be but I'm wondering when I feel exposed and unsure how I can manage this more elegantly?

Simply smile! As long as it shows in your eyes

A few ladies bow (both oriental and western styles) or curtsey to me at the end, but that's probably because I bow to them at the beginning.

If a lady walks away from me radiating "happy" - I'll be walking on air all week

Hope that helps,
Christopher

[Lynn]

Been thinking some more about this and realised that with a really good connected dance I'm not play acting or pretending. At that moment, during that dance, the man I am dancing with is the most important person in the room, I want to be dancing in his arms, and expressing the music in connection with him. This doesn't mean the dance is anything 'more' than a dance, but it does mean that its a close, shared, and at times intimate, few moments. At the end, we part with the pleasure of a shared experience and dance with someone else. And those are the best dances.

Originally Posted by DianaS

Occasionally when I'm dancing the connection becomes almost too much, almost but not quite uncomfortable. But exquisite. At the end of the dance I sometimes turn around and walk off if I don't know the guy and I've realised that it must seem very rude or abrupt.

Other times when I feel more assured, I kiss them on the cheek or thank them warmly. This form of closure seems quite acceptable, the kiss or the thanks are well received and we seperate. These people I feel safe with, its those who I feel less secure with that I tend to turn tail on!

Haven't thought about the closing at the end of a really good dance, probably a hug if I know the guy. If I've had a really connected dance I'm sometimes almost floating a little bit and want to pause before a dance with someone else.

[spindr]

Hmmm, difficult this one -- just because there's music playing doesn't always make it a dance

A lot of dance techniques that suggest that partners are dancing with each other are using the same psychological cues that are used for flirting, etc. -- e.g. body mirroring and eye contact. Anything that resembles rubbing / grinding is straying towards frottage (even shoe-shine moves from AT?). It's not unsurprising that such things might be misinterpreted.

I'd suggest that if you would avoid dancing a particular move(ment) or number of dances together when your (or your partner's) significant other is in the room -- might suggest an appropriate boundary??

SpinDr.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

No, in that previous life I invented CAMP - and it was stolen by a bunch of queens There's no reason on earth why you should be gay to be camp, but for some reason the two are linked. I say be proud to be camp, there's nothing wrong with liking musical theatre, admiring Kylie/Dietrich and dancing in a way that rubs your inner thighs together

Lordy - my turn to panic because I agree with Mr McGregor.

(does being a closet fan of Air Supply count, too?)