Double Pretzel

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by TA Guy

Personally I've never come across a lady who actively dislikes the Pretzel freestyling yet

Until now you mean??

How many have you actually asked?

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I didn't realise anyone thought the almost pretzel was hideous - it seems as harmless as a travelling return (but to the leader's left side). Ahh well.

i like the almost pretzel. its fun and doesnt have the element of "pants, which hand do i raise now"

[CeeCee]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I didn't realise anyone thought the almost pretzel was hideous - it seems as harmless as a travelling return (but to the leader's left side). Ahh well.

Oh how disappointing. For someone of your intelligence, you just don't get it do you? Allow me to clarify.

The almost pretzel by it's very name is hideous by association. It is part of the family. I didn't name it but whoever did presumably wanted it to be thought of at some stage of its execution as a pretzel.

Correct me if I'm wrong (like you need permission) but I'm guessing that at some stage the follower is led to believe that the signal will lead to an actual pretzel before discovering that it is an almost pretzel. The leader makes this choice but the follower doesn't know that.
Does that make it alright?
Is she less worried?

I repeat ...

originally posted by me on this thread
The sight of the leader's spare hand behind his back to signal the impending torment can be enough to make me cringe and want to cry or crumble into an unhappy heap on the floor.

Can you not feel my fear of the signalled move?

Do you need further illustration? Let us imagine the small child ever accustomed to the signal of the familiar and violent adult. The raised hand is followed by a hard, painful, strike on the child's small, fragile body.

Whenever the child sees the raised hand they anticipate the outcome. If the adult decides not the follow through is the child less afraid? Is the almost strike any different to the actual strike?

In conclusion ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I put to you that the almost pretzel is as guilty and therefore hideous as the actual pretzel.

I rest my case.

[Frankie_4711]

I have no problem with Pretzels in general, but there are 2 exceptions:

The Almost Pretzel when the guy does that stupid waggling-the-fingers-in-front-of-the-nose-and/or-sticking-the-tongue-out thing ( ) and (sorry don't know what this one's called) the one which is a single Pretzel, then a turn, then another Pretzel going back the other way, then a turn. But only because I find that most of the men that have lead me into this can't lead me into the second turn very well and I tend to get pushed off balance. When lead well, even that one's fine by me.

In fact, once I decided to start learning to lead intermediate moves, one of the first ones I learnt was the Pretzel (not by accident in a class - I asked someone to show me how to do it because I wanted to learn it), and it's one of those that I use most often (ie I actually manage to remember that I can do it - I tend to forget moves - not how to do them so much as which moves I know ... and I don't know that many! God knows what I'll be like when I get older). Still have trouble with the Double though! Sometimes it works, but most of the time my autopilot kicks in and ends it after just the single Pretzel!

Never realized it was an unpopular move. Maybe I'll do it less often from now on ...

[David Bailey]

Thinking about it, over the past few years I've unconsciously abandoned almost all the "wave your arms around in complex ways" moves - pretzel, backhander, figure of 8, windmill, etc. Too much effort, for something that may look nice to an observer, but really doesn't feel good to the dancers.

I'm not 100% sure I could actually do a pretzel now, in fact. Maybe I'll try it with CeeCee

[Jhutch]

Um, what are people's objections to the pretzel? Must admit that as it is one of the few intermediate moves that i really know i find myself doing it quite a lot. How does it hurt the follower? The one i do is where you pull the woman through on your left, swop hands etc and turn, then return?

I have also come acros the almost pretzel. This was one i quite liked at first as it was quite easy - but i got the impression that most women didnt like it; one woman seemed to really enjoy it but she was very much in a minority Don't do it anymore

[El Salsero Gringo]

I like the pretzel and most of the variations. So shoot me.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Jhutch

Um, what are people's objections to the pretzel?

I think that the specific objection was that it's not done well, and hurts. Just go back a few posts, and you can read this for yourself.

I have to admit though, I quite like the one variation of the pretzel that I do quite regularly. I guess I'm off CeeCee's "people to dance with" list now though

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Jhutch

Um, what are people's objections to the pretzel? Must admit that as it is one of the few intermediate moves that i really know i find myself doing it quite a lot. How does it hurt the follower? The one i do is where you pull the woman through on your left, swop hands etc and turn, then return?

The problem with most moves that involve lots of arms-going-behind-the-back motions, I believe, is that if you do them wrong ("you" being leader or follower), they may cause injury, either immediately or in the long term.

The fast backhander is a real devil for this sort of thing, too.

Also, they're naff. OK, that's probably more a personal view .

But to me, a crowd of people with arms waving in the air looks less good than a crowd of people in fixed hold or arms at waist level.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I like the pretzel and most of the variations. So shoot me.

Well OK then.

Whew, I'm glad I didn't waste my 6,666th post on anything inconsequential.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

But to me, a crowd of people with arms waving in the air looks less good than a crowd of people in fixed hold or arms at waist level.

Lots of "arms in the air" in the best Salsa clubs that I've been to. Looks great.

[Baruch]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I like the pretzel and most of the variations. So shoot me.

I guess I'm up in front of the firing squad too then.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Baruch

I guess I'm up in front of the firing squad too then.

But if we're lucky, they'll use up their total supply of bullets on ESG before working out that he's pretty much bullet-proof!

[Jhutch]

Originally Posted by Jhutch

Um, what are people's objections to the pretzel?

Originally Posted by TheTramp

I think that the specific objection was that it's not done well, and hurts. Just go back a few posts, and you can read this for yourself.

Cheers. The real question was the second one where i asked how it hurt, ie which part, why, what do (some) leaders do wrong?

Originally Posted by Jhutch

How does it hurt the follower?

[clevedonboy]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

The problem with most moves that involve lots of arms-going-behind-the-back motions, I believe, is that if you do them wrong ("you" being leader or follower), they may cause injury, either immediately or in the long term.

The fast backhander is a real devil for this sort of thing, too.

Also, they're naff. OK, that's probably more a personal view .

I hate backhanders in MJ but the Texas Tommy is one of my fave Lindy shapes that has loads of possibilities (I suspect the TT is where MJ got the move from)

Here's a clip I found on youtube - it's not great Lindy but you'll see the dynamics of the move http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zssHz...elated&search=

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Jhutch

Cheers. The real question was the second one where i asked how it hurt, ie which part, why, what do (some) leaders do wrong?

I think that it's the whole twisty, tangly, jerky sort of thing. There is a lot more potential for damage to the lady in a move like a pretzel, with the arms being raised behind the back. Done badly, it could be painful. For either person.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Lots of "arms in the air" in the best Salsa clubs that I've been to. Looks great.

Not so much in the air - they tend to be at or below shoulder-level, don't they?

But, hmmm, yes, you may have a point - and it doesn't look so bad in salsa... maybe because the arms are disassociated from the body movements?

[TA Guy]

Originally Posted by TA Guy

Personally I've never come across a lady who actively dislikes the Pretzel freestyling yet

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Until now you mean??
How many have you actually asked?

MMMmmm, didn't word that very well, I was trying to imply that I've never come across it personally, but acknowledge what's been said in this thread by adding 'freestyling' to indicate I was talking about where I dance. Words are so tricky

I've asked none. Over the years, just in general chatting about stuff, you pick up an overview of what's liked and what's not liked. That's the best I can do, if every different lady I danced with started a list of all the different moves they didn't like for some reason and expected me to remember, my brain would explode

Originally Posted by TA Guy

on the other hand, a fair few have told me they don't like the windmill, and that's a beginner move, so hey!

Originally Posted by Tiggerbabe

Not any more, it's not

It is at my franchise. So Na Na Na!

Originally Posted by mrs_warwick

I think the important thing here is 'asking for repeats'. If you are both happy to repeat a move then I don't see that's a problem. If, however, one person has stated that they don't like a particular move for whatever reason, then that should be respected. Would you (generic, not TA guy specifically) repeatedly pester someone to practise drops?

Funny you should mention drops. Like every guy, at around year one to year two I started to do lots of drops (It's a macho thing ). Like almost every guy, I quickly figured out that the ladies often do not like doing drops with strangers. So toned it back a lot. Some years later and I'd more or less removed them completely from my freestyling. Not sure why, just got bored with them I guess. Then, I dunno, bout a year ago, lo' and behold if several ladies all at once didn't start asking why I didn't do drops and pestering me to do them. I have no idea what brought this on (should ask! maybe dance fever was back on TV ).