Double Pretzel

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

The fast backhander is a real devil for this sort of thing, too.

Also, they're naff. OK, that's probably more a personal view .

The last time I did a back-hander (for demonstration purposes only) my partner ended up on the floor. (Thus ably demonstrating just why I don't do them very often... )

[Gadget]

Since we are dredging up old threads... this thread has some stuff about pretzels in it (the technical & tips stuff comes after about post 26)

Subtleties and improvements to Ceroc moves

and this thread has some things that can go wrong in pretzels:
Tips and Tricks

and there are tones of others: search for "Pretzel"

[TheTramp]

Oh dear. I'm really in trouble now. I like the short back-hander too!

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by Gadget

and there are tones of others: search for "Pretzel"

But if you search for "Double Pretzel", you'll only get semitones.

[Zuhal]

Originally Posted by TA Guy

I've asked none. Over the years, just in general chatting about stuff, you pick up an overview of what's liked and what's not liked. That's the best I can do, if every different lady I danced with started a list of all the different moves they didn't like for some reason and expected me to remember, my brain would explode

When Ladies get stroppy with me about certain moves I remember them getting stroppy but not which particular move they object to so its easier not dance with them in case I cause offense. As they can be numbered on one hand its isn't difficult. Then there are all the ones avoiding me

Zuhal

[Tartaniad]

See what you have starte Stewart? Double pretzels by god! (ps please show me next tme we meet).

But being a novice like myself it is nice to have a new move every now and then,even if means you tie yourself up like a kipper in the process.

May the power be with you young padwan

[Warwick]

I can't multi quote the entire damned thread so... I learned the pretzel as one of my first intermediate moves and it remains one of my few good intermediate moves. I don't chuck it in frequently but we went to a Saturday workshop in Woking for beginners moving to intermediate moves so it was broken down into little pieces. I commited the usual sin of a leader in that move of being too forceful and rushing the middle section before slowing down to re-match the beat for the later part of it.

It looks and feels a lot better smoothly led but the count is a tiny bit odd through it as you feel a little late at the start of one of the turns when leading it properly until you've practised. A partner giving loads of feedback is pretty much an essential.

If I was in a venue and someone complained about my not getting a move right or my hold or indeed anything, then I'd approach a taxi dancer for help. I'd then ask a couple of taxi dancers for a dance and make sure I included whatever had been commented on while dancing and ask them after the dance for comments. I may then go over and ask the original person for a dance and explain to them that I'd spent time with the taxi dancers trying to sort whatever out and if the problem was a move then I'd ask them for permission to include that move 'once' in that dance.

Obviously, I have a slight advantage since SWMBO used to be a taxi dancer (before DD was born) and is happy to tell me where I'm going wrong and fix it.

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by Tartaniad

See what you have starte Stewart? Double pretzels by god! (ps please show me next tme we meet).

Well, it was a looong time ago t...

That's twice I've been called a God in one thread btw...must trawl back through the Religious Beliefs thread, to see whether that constitutes proof of my existence.

I'll show you the DPret when I get back from my cruise round the Med (did I say I was going on a cruise round the Med? No? I'm going on a cruise round the Med you know... ). Assuming that neither a) CeeCee has me assassinated or b) you ask someone better able to show you (Franck, Mairi) first.

[straycat]

Interesting thread.... I confess I'm another who does double pretzels, although not often (used to use it a lot, these days not so much)

I've never really been a fan of leading it via signals (and I'm definitely not a fan of 'fooling' my partner into thinking a dance is going in one direction then taking it in another - so 'almost' pretzels are right out) - I prefer to used connection-based techniques for getting into it.

There's also a point in the middle of a double pretzel where I used to think that followers were anticipating and going in the wrong direction (in a kind of let-go-now-or-break-an-arm fashion) - took me a while to realise that I was leading them into that - I worked out in the end that a slight (and hard-to-describe) hand position change would lead them to turn the right way, with only subtle leads required.

I also figured quite quickly that if it looked like I might need to 'force' a partner to follow the move, it was time to let go and invent a different move (which is a good rule of thumb regardless of what you're doing)

[Heather]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Oh dear. I'm really in trouble now. I like the short back-hander too!

I always thought a 'backhander' was a euphamism for getting paid for a job or services rendered without declaring it to the taxman!!


Heather

[Genie]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

I think that it's the whole twisty, tangly, jerky sort of thing. There is a lot more potential for damage to the lady in a move like a pretzel, with the arms being raised behind the back. Done badly, it could be painful. For either person.

Yes yes yes. Very painful. In fact I think I have complained about the DREADED PRETZEL before. I had to sit out almost an entire evening when one guy, during a class, led the pretzel the wrong way and gripped my hands at the same time. The shoulder was put back into place eventually, but since then all pretzelness is evil.

And I will quite happily shoot you all, yes

[Baruch]

Originally Posted by Genie

I had to sit out almost an entire evening when one guy, during a class, led the pretzel the wrong way and gripped my hands at the same time. The shoulder was put back into place eventually, but since then all pretzelness is evil.

That works the other way too. Those of us who lead can get hurt by pretzels as well. I've had several times where I've had a partner grip onto my hands then turn herself the wrong way during a pretzel. Considering that I have a weakness in my shoulder joint due to past injuries, this can hurt. A lot. That hasn't put me off the pretzel, but it has made me more careful who I do them with in freestyle. In class, I'm more aware of what's happening and make sure I tell the lady I'm with at the time exactly what she should be doing. Maybe I come across as bossy, but that's preferable to having my shoulder wrenched and being unable to dance for weeks.

In my beginner revision class we covered the pretzel last week, and the very first thing I said was that if it feels uncomfortable, stop and let go. I also made sure I emphasised that there should be no gripping and no back-leading.

As I said before, I like the pretzel and some of its variants, but there's no denying that it can be dangerous if done badly. Perhaps if someone doesn't want to do pretzels they could make it clear to their partner at the start of the dance: "By the way, no drops or pretzels, please." Or something like that.

[Genie]

lol. I don't know why, but I feel more comfortable with dips and drops than pretzels. If I hit the ground I will feel bruised. But I will be able to continue dancing. Can't do that with my shoulder out of its socket.

So "You can dip me, even drop me if you can hold my weight but NO pretzels please."

[Baruch]

Originally Posted by Genie

"You can dip me, even drop me if you can hold my weight but NO pretzels please."

I would imagine that most men would respect a request like that.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Genie

So "You can dip me, even drop me if you can hold my weight

You have weight??

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Genie

So "You can dip me, even drop me if you can hold my weight but NO pretzels please."

You don't seem to complain when I do them

[Genie]

Originally Posted by Gadget

You don't seem to complain when I do them

You do pretzels? I didn't notice.

You have weight??

YES! Dammit! I do! I have a whole 8 stone of it!

...

I would imagine that most men would respect a request like that.

lol. Some men lead into those moves without thinking about it. I can't fault them for it, if it's one of their core moves. It's not that I don't do pretzels. I will follow them (as best as I can, however they are led) but I am wary of them. It is the only move I have ever been seriously injured in.

[MartinHarper]

So I still follow a bit, and I've yet to be injured, but I'm aware of this thread, so I thought I'd look for preventative techniques. What can I as a follower do to reduce or remove the risk associated with pretzels?

I've looked at the threads Gadget linked, and so far I have:
* don't back-lead/anticipate, because that can hurt the lead's shoulder
* keep my hands and arms loose during moves that feel "twisty".

Any others?

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Any others?

How about, dont think about it and just go with the flow! The more you relax the better it feels

[Gadget]

Other things I've found:
- Keep the hand that should be low close to your own back.
- Make a point to rotate 180º to face your partner and don't just go as little as you think you can get away with.
- When coming round to face, move yourself so you're not too far away; don't simply pull your partner closer, bend or stretch; just move your feet a little bit.

{edit}
- On the 'entrance' to the pretzel, it's sometimes taught to rotate a bit while waggling your hand. Personally I think it looks messy. Lead the follower to your left side and they should be able to see your hand as they step forward.