Moves for followers, moves for leaders...

[LMC]

I've done enough leading now to realise that some moves are lovely to follow, but a b*tch to lead - and vice versa. Intermediate class last night included the flamenco walk ( - been wanting to learn to lead that one for ages!). Said flamenco walk can be quite tricky to follow - there aren't many MJ moves which are led from the lady's left hand and fast weight changes are sometimes necessary. However, I found the move surprisingly easy to lead*.

Another one - shoulder drop: quite easy to follow IMO - but relatively hard to lead the first part of the move nicely - the lead's turn as the follow comes out of the return from the previous move.

Archiespin - a b*tch to lead and follow - I ditched the horrible nasty potentially dangerous-to-follower's-shoulder crossover archiespin even before the freestyle - I told the follower in the last class rotation ("twice through and...") that I was so losing that move, like right now, so if she liked it, sorry, but tough.

*apologies to all the lovely followers who got way too many flamenco walks last night, I wanna "fix" that one in my repertoire, and hope that they weren't all too strangely led!

So out of curiosity - which moves do you find particularly easy to lead / follow and which are difficult? I'd obviously be *really* interested to hear from people who can lead AND follow, as they have both points of view, but it would still be good to see if there's a "commonality"...

[Gojive]

Any sway based move I find very easy to lead - perhaps too easy, because I keep chucking loads in when I'm feeling uncreative

Two difficult ones to lead come to mind:

Any archie type move - reall really hate that move, so I tend to get it all wrong.

Push Spin - A simple push spin?? YES! For some bizzarre reason, the flat hand to flat hand preparation seems to send many experienced ladies into a kind of "oh my god, why is he doing that?!" rabbit in headlight stance Now I know my lead is reasonable, so I'm not convinced (yet) it's down to me - I have this sneaky feeling it's simply a move that seems to be done so rarely on social floor, that it takes people by suprise? Of course, I could just be very crap at leading a very simple move I guess!

[Twirly]

Originally Posted by Gojive

Any sway based move I find very easy to lead - perhaps too easy, because I keep chucking loads in when I'm feeling uncreative

Two difficult ones to lead come to mind:

Any archie type move - reall really hate that move, so I tend to get it all wrong.

Push Spin - A simple push spin?? YES! For some bizzarre reason, the flat hand to flat hand preparation seems to send many experienced ladies into a kind of "oh my god, why is he doing that?!" rabbit in headlight stance Now I know my lead is reasonable, so I'm not convinced (yet) it's down to me - I have this sneaky feeling it's simply a move that seems to be done so rarely on social floor, that it takes people by suprise? Of course, I could just be very crap at leading a very simple move I guess!

K - follower only opinion on the above... sways are lovely

Archie - straightforward is fine, but I can get a bit tangled coming out of it. Cause it's a bit tricky to start with, if the leader does something I'm not expecting as they did the other day (and I didn't know about variations - stupid I know, but I didn't), then I find it hard to follow. However, now I know that I might come out of it doing something I didn't expect, I'll find it easier in the future, if that makes sense (trying not to anticipate basically )

Push spin – well, I’m not that experienced, but I do find a tendency for leaders to push me off balance with this one if they don't push down in a way that's right for me, or to go the other way and give me such a weak lead that I don’t follow it very well. Maybe that’s something to do with general experience of this that causes the rabbit in headlights look – the expectation that they might end up off balance? I'm sure it’s not your lead gojive - I’ve never danced with you (to my knowledge) so I can't comment. But I do hate being pushed off balance I can do it well enough myself, don’t need any help!

[Gadget]

"Easy" just comes with practice and technique (Most of that is a combination of timing and position) - a good lead should be able to lead moves that are "easy" to follow.

I found the elbow roll moves quite tricky to get, but can now do them with relative ease.
The first move (and basket) I found twisted me in a strange way due to the front hand still being connected while we were both stepping back almost away from each other. I find them easy now.
First move mambo walks and penguin walks and all those type moves I kept getting the timing wrong on. I've got that nicely now.
Archies and barrel rolls used to be quite difficult, but I've learned how to time it and position myself so that it's not any more.
Getting the follower to come out where I wanted them on a cattapult was tricky for a while, but I've got that now.

I do find some of those tango leg flick thingies quite hard to lead just now - I'm just not getting my timeing right and am looking to lead the follower's leg instead of leading the action that causes the leg to flick.

I find it quite hard to lead a low seducer - the position of my outside foot is slightly out, my knee is bent at a crooked angle, by balance feels wrong, I'm leaning over the follower too much... but I'm getting better.

I don't like arials, so I would probably find it hard to do them. Besides that, I rarely find moves "difficult" now {Although it's often a challenge getting my right and left hands the correct way round }.

[BobbyA]

Originally Posted by Gojive

Push Spin - A simple push spin?? YES! For some bizzarre reason, the flat hand to flat hand preparation seems to send many experienced ladies into a kind of "oh my god, why is he doing that?!" rabbit in headlight stance Now I know my lead is reasonable, so I'm not convinced (yet) it's down to me - I have this sneaky feeling it's simply a move that seems to be done so rarely on social floor, that it takes people by suprise? Of course, I could just be very crap at leading a very simple move I guess!

I hardly ever do a push spin. Infact until friday I never just do it on its own in freestyle and now I remember why. I tried doing it and it just seemed to not flow and it took an experienced follower (someone i dance with all the time) to realise for a second what i'd just done. Maybe she's just used to my style and knows that i never do a push spin on its own. Either way, i'm not very fond of the push spin move. It doesn't seem to flow well.

[MartinHarper]

Moves that are easier to lead and harder to follow:
* Anything that uses the follower's left hand.
* Anything with non-standard timing.
* Any choreographed stuff
* Anything with an element of visual mirroring

Moves that are harder to lead and easier to follow:
* Anything where the leader has to do several things at once.
* Anything where the leader needs to closely control the follower's balance.
* Anything with multiple spins for the leader
* Anything where the follower is moving quickly or changing direction rapidly.

[LMC]

Threadkiller

Good points all

[PeteK]

Interesting that several people dislike archie spins from a leader perspective - and indeed I've not seen many people dancing them down here in London.

I started doing MJ a while ago up in Chester, and up there most people did archie spins a lot and so we all got used to it. I quite like it as a move....when the music fits.

[Frankie_4711]

Penguin walks I find difficult - mainly because they seem to come quite suddenly and are over quite quickly. I know the techniques behind it (if I don't after 'that' thread and learning it in class that same week, then I need serious help!) it's just the surprise factor, and not having time to adjust before it's over. But if the lead is good enough (or maybe not 'good' enough, but 'right' for me), I have been known to follow adequately.

[johnthehappyguy]

Originally Posted by PeteK

Interesting that several people dislike archie spins from a leader perspective - and indeed I've not seen many people dancing them down here in London.

I started doing MJ a while ago up in Chester, and up there most people did archie spins a lot and so we all got used to it. I quite like it as a move....when the music fits.

One excellent leader I know, has said of Archies - If the lady anticipates ( the type of archie ) incorrectly you may as well just rip your own arm off instead. It could well be less painful.

I rarely use them for this reason, and have seen travelling Archies taught which made me feel ]


I am going to go and lie down now.

( i think I will give myself a )

P.S. I am willing to be converted

Is there any guaranteed way of leading this type of move to avoid the possibility of pain.

No prizes for the helpful responses of "properly" , "clearly" , or "well"


John

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by PeteK

Interesting that several people dislike archie spins from a leader perspective - and indeed I've not seen many people dancing them down here in London.

I started doing MJ a while ago up in Chester, and up there most people did archie spins a lot and so we all got used to it. I quite like it as a move....when the music fits.

There must be regional variations according to which moves tend to be taught most often and hence many of these end up becoming part of a leader's collection of stock moves. Then as others see them being danced they learn them and/or practice them, and so on. There could be something in the water in Chester or wherever that makes people love to dance a particular move, but I doubt it. Personally I'm all for reviving old and rarely taught MJ moves.

[Caro]

Originally Posted by Gadget

{Although it's often a challenge getting my right and left hands the correct way round }.

that reminds me of a certain blues workshops...

[spindr]

Originally Posted by johnthehappyguy

P.S. I am willing to be converted

Is there any guaranteed way of leading this type of move to avoid the possibility of pain.

Hmmm, Archie Spins, et. al.

A light handhold.

[Begin heresy]Don't worry about precise beat timing's and precise positions at the intermediate move positions -- keep close and try "rolling" through the move, as you go back to back, shoulder to shoulder, and possibly backside to backside, etc. -- you can fudge the exit timing at the end.[End heresy]

Keep a good connection through the move and don't treat the twist the hands so much as a twist but a slight roll of the bodies in the opposite direction (as a preparation) that happens to make the arms and the hands "twist". All movements need to be smooth, don't make any abrupt changes of direction -- gradually deccelerate the twist in the handhold and then very gradually accelerate it in the opposite direction.

Try learning to dance "the swing" -- double-hand hold take the hands through between you, up, over and down -- this will give you practice at "rolling through" an Archie Spin, as you learn to dance "the swing" quickly and smoothly.

Try learning to dance a right-to-left version of an Archie Spin, rather than a left-to-right version -- you *will* need to lead it, it will need a good connection and it'll stop any follower anticipation ('cause it's a rare move). Obviously, the direction of twist and rolling are in the opposite directions.

SpinDr.

[Gojive]

Originally Posted by Frankie_4711

Penguin walks I find difficult - mainly because they seem to come quite suddenly and are over quite quickly. I know the techniques behind it (if I don't after 'that' thread and learning it in class that same week, then I need serious help!) it's just the surprise factor, and not having time to adjust before it's over. But if the lead is good enough (or maybe not 'good' enough, but 'right' for me), I have been known to follow adequately.

Well what da ya know! I've never really known what these 'Penguin Walks' were (coming from a non-ceroc background), and lo and behold, they were taught tonight at Woking!

After all these years of dancing, I've finally been taught a move that I absolutely adore watching others do, but have never been able to do it myself.

Nothing I was taught tonight, was any different from anything I've tried in the past, yet it just all clicked into place so sweetly. Now I can do them, and I'm extremely chuffed (as you may be able to tell! )

What a great way to return to the dance floor, after all that time out

[LMC]

Originally Posted by spindr

[Begin heresy]Don't worry about precise beat timing's and precise positions at the intermediate move positions -- keep close and try "rolling" through the move, as you go back to back, shoulder to shoulder, and possibly backside to backside, etc. -- you can fudge the exit timing at the end.[End heresy]

BURN HIM!

Part of the problem with beginner leads (like me) and archiespins is the timing - I found I was stepping forward too soon, with the associated risk of yanking the follower. The plague of anticipating followers didn't help either

I actually don't mind archies as a follower if they are smoothly led. It's the getting from learning to lead them to leading them well that's the problem.

Re: penguin walks - I still find these tricky - the faster they go, the firmer the frame a follower needs. I'm still working on someone being able to whizz me round at high speeds

[robd]

Originally Posted by Frankie_4711

Penguin walks I find difficult - mainly because they seem to come quite suddenly and are over quite quickly.

Depends who's doing them. I was still going after a minute last night (doesn't sound that long but it is when you're constantly turning) with one partner. On the other hand I aborted after only about 6 revolutions with one partner on Friday after she said she was feeling dizzy.

Robert

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by Gojive

Push Spin - A simple push spin?? YES! For some bizzarre reason, the flat hand to flat hand preparation seems to send many experienced ladies into a kind of "oh my god, why is he doing that?!" rabbit in headlight stance Now I know my lead is reasonable, so I'm not convinced (yet) it's down to me - I have this sneaky feeling it's simply a move that seems to be done so rarely on social floor, that it takes people by suprise? Of course, I could just be very crap at leading a very simple move I guess!

I've an idea that this used to be considered by Ceroc as a Beginner's Move in Olden Days. Pretty sure it's not a Beginner's move any more though - I guess it's classified as Intermediate now, but probably only taught very rarely as it's such a simple move.

[Tessalicious]

Originally Posted by DavidY

I've an idea that this used to be considered by Ceroc as a Beginner's Move in Olden Days. Pretty sure it's not a Beginner's move any more though - I guess it's classified as Intermediate now, but probably only taught very rarely as it's such a simple move.

No, you're right - it is still a beginners move in fact, but is never really taught with enough advice for the ladies about tension for it ever to work beyond a level of 'ooh, he pushed his hand down, I suppose I'd better see if I can spin' for the beginners that learn it, and most people stop doing it as soon as they have the alternatives because it's just too hard. That and, as a beginner, it's terrifying to have to let go of your partner for very long, because they're your only lifeline, so these types of moves, along with cerocspins, are usually dropped pretty quickly.

Maybe we would benefit from a mini-revamp of beginners moves - for example, removing one of the pushspin variations and replacing it with the sway.