Ladies .... how would you follow this lead?

[Magic Hans]

Ok ... wordy description of moves are fraught with all sorts of misinterpretations, but ... errrrr here goes. [and this one's fairly simple!!]

From the lady's (follow's) perspective.

Started close, his left to my right.
Both step back.
He gives a slight pull toward himself (as for a travelling return), but
... takes my hand high and to my right.

What do I do?
a) a full 360 turn, only offset to his left (my right)
b) a turn on the spot, no matter where his hand is
c) walk past, under his arm and a half turn to my ... errrrr ... left (to face).
d) something else.


Ok, you (or at least some, maybe one(?)) are wondering why he's asking this.

I've been doing this move for a few months now, with some success. I think that I picked it up from samba a few years ago (half turn under, half turn back, half turn under, half turn back again). It really is not a complicated move, however, many of my partners go into return mode as soon as I lift their right hand (with my left).

I end up really exaggerating the distance between left hand and body, almost standing on tip toe, and stretching as far and high as I can to my left, whilst keeping my body in toward me (making the 'gate' as big and obvious as possible). One partner remarked, with a chuckle, that it was as if I were doing some manner of one winged birdlike take-off maneouvre.

[Maybe I'll sqwawk, Lenny Henry style next time for added effect!]

Despite my efforts to make my lead as loud as I can, what do I get? A return [hmmph!] slighty offset, but a return none-the-less.

Anything else I can do?? [Short of squawking that is!!!]

!an

[Piglet]

Would you not be better leading it like a left-handed catapult in order to get your follow to begin the half turn?

I'm not sure what I would do - probably either a clockwise turn or a half turn or walk on through, depending what I felt in the lead other than the hand being held high.

[spindr]

Might have a couple of ideas -- but am not entirely clear what you *want* the lady to do. Are you expecting her to travel a la cross body (and swap sides with you) or does she stay on the spot (sort of)?

SpinDr

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Started close, his left to my right.
Both step back.
He gives a slight pull toward himself (as for a travelling return), but
... takes my hand high and to my right.

Based on that description, probably walk past, under his arm, and start to turn to my right, as if for a false pretzel of some description. It could also be the start of a Push Spin, if the slight pull is pretty slight. I can't see how I would take it as a return of any kind: for a return I'd want my hand to be taken to my left, not my right.

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

(c) walk past, under his arm and a half turn to my ... errrrr ... left (to face).

As you've described it, this would leave me in a half-nelson position? Have you described this right?

----

I'm not entirely clear on the move you're trying to lead, but if it's what I think it is, it's one I occasionally lead myself: an eight beat move, starting like a False Pretzel, and finishing like the pull through at the end of a beginner's Shoulder Drop. You probably need to more clearly indicate that your partner is to move forward, and delay lifting your hand up until they've gathered a bit of forward momentum.

[LMC]

Without "feeling" the lead it's almost impossible to say (luckily I'm in the office so early that there's no-one to watch me being invisibly led )

Being back on my right foot, I would either step across with my left, with or without starting to turn. If you led a weight change, I'd step right with my right. If you led it as a turn, then I'd turn - 360 deg unless you led a stop.

At least I hope I would follow what was led...

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

c) walk past, under his arm and a half turn to my ... errrrr ... left (to face).

I'd expect the lady to do version C except a turn to the left (counter clock-wise?) would be unnatural because the follower would have to twist her own wrist to do that. A clock-wise turn is what should finish that off. But it really depends on how the lead moves his hand to finish the move.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

...(half turn under, half turn back, half turn under, half turn back again). It really is not a complicated move, however, many of my partners go into return mode as soon as I lift their right hand (with my left).

Are you leading them to stop on a half turn, then reverse? or just interupting the lead of a turn and reversing it?

The lead is all about giving the follower clear signals (in advance) of what you want them to do. Personally I would only lead this sort of thing using the off-hand to re-inforce the first block because I would expect the follower not to expect me to stop at that point (and since you want to block/reverse with a high hand, distanced from the follower's "core", in a direction other than simply latteral, there is very little to 'push' against to give the lead.)

If I were to lead this with a good follower, I would also need to differentiate between wanting them to complete a turn and re-position the hand or stopping the turn: I often use timeing and the follower's natural stepping/weight distrubution to time moving my lead hand without them following it. (eg a lady's comb from a hand-shake hold)
To seperate the two, I would have to apply pressure down the arm (towards their "core") as the follower is beginning the turn - this should indicate a stop. The I would lead the folower to come back to where they started.
Possible, but I suspect that a 'normal' follower would just collapse at the elbow* when the pressure was applied and continue turning (realising something went wrong, but not knowing what, when they finish the turn).

{*With excelent leading skills, I'm sure that this also could be overcome}

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Ok ... wordy description of moves are fraught with all sorts of misinterpretations, but ... errrrr here goes. [and this one's fairly simple!!]

From the lady's (follow's) perspective.

Started close, his left to my right.
Both step back.
He gives a slight pull toward himself (as for a travelling return), but
... takes my hand high and to my right.

What do I do?

d. Feels like a "Step Across" to me, so far.

But assuming I was expecting to go into a return, and you'd led that, I'd actually be quite confused. No turn would feel natural from there, so I wouldn't turn at all, or travel under your arm. I'd probably either stop & wait for a clearer lead, or walk past, NOT under your arm, and turn to face.

(half turn under, half turn back, half turn under, half turn back again).

Which would work as I'd be stopped.

Anything else I can do?? [Short of squawking that is!!!]

Keep your body to the right to block me, and your hand as far to the right of me as you can. That'd stop me returning. And dance with ladies who anticipate less!

[mikeyr]

It sounds like What I call a Samba crossover the real name of the move begins with "P" but I can never remember it. Where partners change sides follower in front of the leader, at the end of the change the samba 1 a 2 step is done then across to change sides again. If it is, lead it from a first move, use your right hand to guide your partner across the (her moving) right to left change, use your high left hand to initiate the next change.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by mikeyr

It sounds like What I call a Samba crossover the real name of the move begins with "P" but I can never remember it. Where partners change sides follower in front of the leader, at the end of the change the samba 1 a 2 step is done then across to change sides again. If it is, lead it from a first move, use your right hand to guide your partner across the (her moving) right to left change, use your high left hand to initiate the next change.

That sounding good (always difficult to judge by wordy stuff). I'm assuming that you're description is implying no switch of hand (ie hand hold remains man's left to lady's right), and so what I'm reading is that I can, possibly, use my right hand as a further 'encourager' to ensure that she passes under my left hand. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

To try to be a little more explicit and descriptive [gulp!]

Take a straight forward travelling return.

Both step back [Man's left to lady's right]
Man leads lady forwards (and steps forward and to the left himself)
Man raises hand as both pass right shoulders.
Lady half turns counter clockwise under man's arm, as ...
Man simply turns (clockwise) to face.

Ok .... so how about exactly the same thing, except rather than passing right shoulders, passing left shoulders.

Both step back as above
Man leads lady forward and to his left (and steps forward to the right himself)
Man raises hand as both pass left shoulders.
Lady half turns clockwise under man's arm, as ...
Man simply turns (counter clockwise) to face
[Note: at this point, man's hand will be over lady's rather than the usual]

Shouldn't that be really really simple? [ .... it's not a treble pretzel doughnut with half windmill and double toe loop fgs!!] ... and I quite like it when it goes right!! ... though I'm never very disappointed with variations!!

Does this make sense? Clear up any confusion? Pray tell!

!an

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Ok .... so how about exactly the same thing, except rather than passing right shoulders, passing left shoulders.

Both step back as above
Man leads lady forward and to his left (and steps forward to the right himself)
Man raises hand as both pass left shoulders.
Lady half turns clockwise under man's arm, as ...
Man simply turns (counter clockwise) to face
[Note: at this point, man's hand will be over lady's rather than the usual]

Shouldn't that be really really simple? [ .... it's not a treble pretzel doughnut with half windmill and double toe loop fgs!!] ... and I quite like it when it goes right!! ... though I'm never very disappointed with variations!!

Does this make sense? Clear up any confusion? Pray tell!

Ok, this effectively the same as one of the salsa cross-body moves.

I would modify the lead slightly:
Lady steps back
Man steps diagonally back-right to open the way for the lady

Man leads lady forward (man steps forwards and rotates 90 degrees anticlockwise, so that his shoulders are parallel to the lady's motion)
I would try to give the slight suggestion of a "stretch" in the lady's arm whilst keeping it at waist level -- if the lady feel's that her arm is extended she's more likely to walk directly forwards. Note if you want the lead to be forwards you have to lead the hands forwards.

As the lady walks forwards you lead to raise the hand smoothly in an arc up to head height -- but aiming slightly above the lady's right shoulder, i.e. taking the hands slightly away from you.

Lead the lady to rotate clockwise and step backwards by twisting the hands slightly clockwise, taking them over her head, and lowering to waist level. As the man completes the anticlockwise rotation to face.

SpinDr.

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Ok ... wordy description of moves are fraught with all sorts of misinterpretations, but ... errrrr here goes. [and this one's fairly simple!!]

From the lady's (follow's) perspective.

Started close, his left to my right.
Both step back.
He gives a slight pull toward himself (as for a travelling return), but
... takes my hand high and to my right.

What do I do?
a) a full 360 turn, only offset to his left (my right)
b) a turn on the spot, no matter where his hand is
c) walk past, under his arm and a half turn to my ... errrrr ... left (to face).
d) something else.

!an

Seems to me as though this is the lead for a touch turn as in West coast swing. Follower steps forward, leader raises flat left hand and turns follower on the spot 360 degrees clockwise, follower steps back (or probably both step back if danced in MJ mode). Is it this simple. As a follower in WCs your way would be blocked by the leader and you would have little choice but to turn on the spot. This might cause confusion in MJ. If the lead is good enough it should be clear where you should go.........if they give you space and iivite you to travel across then you should do so and be prepared for whatever comes next.