Salsa & MJ

[Zuhal]

I have been putting myself through Salsa and thought that some of you might share some of your experiences.

My first night was less than welcoming and one has to steel yourself to go and be inadequate.

It is not a beginner friendly environment because there is an enormous jump from beginner to being able to freestyle. There is also a 40 min time lag from the beginner class until some freestyle time. Most of the beginners run off home. I am Mr Brassneck so I have been doing every class that they will allow and ask people to help me for a few mins each during the rest of the evening.

Strangely I do not have any trouble differentiating between moves and movement between MJ and Salsa. The music helps throw this switch in my small brain.

The teaching in Salsa seems to be less planned and can be quite confusing when the sequence being taught is changed again and again during the class. (This is fine if the lady is following you but not so good if you are leading the taught sequence and the teacher is calling the new might be better, easier sequence)

What’s all that Mambo warm up stroll nonsense?

During the freestyle they stop the music tween tracks and invite you to dance with someone that you have never danced with before. (good idea)

It is more difficult to grasp than MJ and I need a whole new language. Still not sure whether I am Cuban, New York, on 2, or shiney!

The ‘Hotshot ‘ quotient is very high, though the ladies are less guilty because the ratios always mean that there are far more ladies than partners

At the moment I am no good at Salsa and not enjoying the MJ so it all seems a bit too much like hard work. Think I need an inspirational workshop.

Zuhal

[philsmove]

I have just started salsa too Fiddles in BRISTOL

My experience is the opposite BUT I am only attending beginners

I like the warm up session

The Standard of instruction was extremely high. The teachers were Cressida and Rohan who had an infectious enthusiasm

The class was very friendly, with quite a few familiar faces from local MJ classes . I realised I had danced MJ with the teacher in the past, although I did not know she was a teacher when I first asked her to dance.

Friends who are trying to move up to intermediate level as fast as possible are finding it “challenging “

My advice - take it slowly and enjoyed yourself

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Zuhal

The ‘Hotshot ‘ quotient is very high, though the ladies are less guilty because the ratios always mean that there are far more ladies than partners

The result is that you can sit an entire evening at a salsa dance and only dance with the men you came with, (this has never happened at to me at MJ). Add to that the music is usually too loud and the venues crowded and smoky. So I stopped going to salsa classes because I was learning a dance but rarely getting to dance it!

[Lynn]

Sorry if last post sounded a bit negative - there are lots of really lovely people on the salsa scene here (and the nicest do MJ too! ) but I have never really enjoyed a salsa dance as its too loud to talk but I'm not up dancing much. And there is a 'them and us' attitude between some of the better dancers and the rest. Which is a shame as I was enjoying learning it at first and I did it every week for 4 months.

[Bigger Andy]

From my experience, the most difficult thing to get to grips with in Salsa is the fact that you get taught a 'routine' rather than being taught a series of individual moves.

I find that I remember the routine during the class, but that's it. By the following week it has gone.

Because MJ is taught as a series of individual moves I find it easier to pick out the ones I like and remember them.



I have heard it said that it is better to learn Salsa first before you learn MJ. I guess that this is because of the footwork rules involved with Salsa.



I too like the warm ups that they do at Salsa classes. It is much more fun than the warm-ups that we do at our Ceroc classes.


.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Bigger Andy

I too like the warm ups that they do at Salsa classes. It is much more fun than the warm-ups that we do at our Ceroc classes. .

Salsa classes differ very much in their formats.

I liked merenque, which is also taught at many, and "borrowed" little bits for MJ, for a while, although they seem to have fallen out of my normal use.

[Gadget]

My breif delve into Salsa definetly improved my dancing: it was more the positioning of the lady and yourself to her than the actual "footwork" - the realisation that if you actually move beside your partner, your arms don't have to streach, you don't need to lean, you don't have to pull at the lady, and everything works smoother.

[Groovy Dancer]

Originally Posted by Zuhal

I have been putting myself through Salsa and thought that some of you might share some of your experiences.

My first night was less than welcoming and one has to steel yourself to go and be inadequate.

It is not a beginner friendly environment because there is an enormous jump from beginner to being able to freestyle. There is also a 40 min time lag from the beginner class until some freestyle time. Most of the beginners run off home. I am Mr Brassneck so I have been doing every class that they will allow and ask people to help me for a few mins each during the rest of the evening.

Strangely I do not have any trouble differentiating between moves and movement between MJ and Salsa. The music helps throw this switch in my small brain.

The teaching in Salsa seems to be less planned and can be quite confusing when the sequence being taught is changed again and again during the class. (This is fine if the lady is following you but not so good if you are leading the taught sequence and the teacher is calling the new might be better, easier sequence)

What’s all that Mambo warm up stroll nonsense?

During the freestyle they stop the music tween tracks and invite you to dance with someone that you have never danced with before. (good idea)

It is more difficult to grasp than MJ and I need a whole new language. Still not sure whether I am Cuban, New York, on 2, or shiney!

The ‘Hotshot ‘ quotient is very high, though the ladies are less guilty because the ratios always mean that there are far more ladies than partners

At the moment I am no good at Salsa and not enjoying the MJ so it all seems a bit too much like hard work. Think I need an inspirational workshop.

Zuhal

I have done salsa for quite sometime, and in my experience you need to have an open mind, and ready to do something new and challenging.

Each 'salsa venue' has its own class structure, from beginners, to improvers, intermediates, and advanced. Where you decide to start should depend on your own capabilities.

I have expierienced very unfriendly teaching, but usually it is in the form of the teacher not being patient with the progress of the class(and this is usually in the intermediate, or advanced class) not the actual individuals. They assume you know the all the basics and with the size of some classes that I have been to,there is no time to really emphasize on basics so sometimes the attitude is you need to keep up and concentrate.
Basically the routines being taught are meant to give more ability for your freestyle as well as give you an insight into various moves.

The mambo stroll, the electric slide, is used as a warm up with a added bonus, it kinda puts you in the mode for dancing salsa, it is not mandatory but it is good fun.

IMHO, it doesn't matter what style you do, the lady does follow,even if it is only basic steps. Mind you I do get the bored looks sometimes when I do the same step for about five times in succession.

I did salsa long before MJ, and to me it has helped me understand some complex moves better, and made MJ for me quite an enjoyable hobby, but I am still not as confident as I hoped I would be. (I say this because i ventured to a salsa venue last night and I almost sat out the whole night )


Salsa is not hard,you just need to stick at it, take one move at a time and add it to what you already know. No one expects you to know loads of moves, but just a confident lead and the basic timing helps alot. The ladies will always dance with you no matter what level, they always tell me 'Just lead and I'll follow you'.

My final word, perseverance.


KGD

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Groovy Dancer

......../snip/........I did salsa long before MJ..........

So that's where you get your sexy wiggle from

Have to say the MJ scene is far the most friendly of all the dance style scenes I have been involved in (including Lindy & Rock 'n' Roll)

[Groovy Dancer]

[quote=Minnie M]So that's where you get your sexy wiggle from

Let's keep that a secret.




KGD

[andydo]

I've been doing salsa for about 6 years now and modern jive for about 8 years.

If you're starting salsa I'd recommend looking around some different classes assuming you've got the chance. Don't assume that all salsa classes and instructors are going to be the same. There is a much wider variation in the standard of salsa teaching and in the way salsa classes are structured than you'll find in modern jive where virtually everyone is following the same model which has been honed to be beginner friendly. Of course it might not be possible to make a choice between different classes depending on where you live, but I would have thought you'd have a choice of classes in South London. You may well be able to find somewhere more beginner friendly.

I'd agree that salsa is a more difficult dance to learn than modern jive. Firstly you need to master the basic footwork pattern, and secondly the music is less familiar so there can be problems in picking up the basic rhythm. However persistence should pay off. Finding a more beginner friendly environment should help, its no use going to somewhere where they only teach beginners for 40 minutes once a week and then all the beginners go home before the rest of the classes and the freestyle. As with any dance you need to keep repeating the basics in freestyle until they are automatic. It sounds like you're doing the right thing in hanging around and dancing after the beginners class though.

You have to remember that you are learning a new dance, it may be tempting to try to start doing your modern jive moves in salsa or to carry some modern jive habits into salsa, I've seen people do this and it generally just looks a mess. There is nothing worse than watching Ceroc style salsa. Pick up the styling and technique from salsa and then you can carry that into your jive, but don't try to do it the other way around.

Obviously you have a choice of styles in salsa. Probably UK cross body on 1 (also called New York style) is the most popular in the UK, then of course there is Cuban and the confusingly named and little danced On 2. I would say it matters less what style you do than what the environment you are dancing in is like. If there is a class that you get on with well and a good community of dancers then that is probably the one to go for. I started off doing Cuban, then learnt UK cross body on 1 / New York style later. Doing a mixture of different styles when you start would probably be confusing and not a good idea.

It can be hard learning salsa in the beginning especially if you have already learnt modern jive. Being a beginner again is ego-deflating and it takes persistence to keep going to salsa classes where you feel like a poor dancer when you can go to modern jive and feel like a good dancer. If you are a keen dancer though its probably going to be worth it because ultimately you are probably going to get frustrated with modern jive. Salsa is a more technical dance and the standard of the best dancers and instructors is much higher than you'll ever see in jive.

There are some negatives to the salsa scene though, it can be less friendly and the dance with anyone, never say no to a dance culture is perhaps not as widely established. It depends where you go though, some big salsa venues in London may be unfriendly, but smaller venues elsewhere in the UK are more likely to have a friendlier attitude.

I've seen a lot of people from jive start salsa over the years and very few have stuck with it. I think there are various reasons, as I said its difficult to go back to being a beginner again, the salsa scene where I live is smaller than the jive scene so the opportunities to go dancing are more limited, the environment was less beginner friendly, the people weren't committed enough and they found it less effort to get their dance fix by going back to jive.

So I'd say, see if you can find a better learning environment in your area. If not then just stick with it, it gets easier as long as you're persistent and keep practicing. Try to get some friends from jive starting along with you if you can, there is nothing better than some social support to help in the early days.

It's worth it.

[Lynn]

I started salsa before I was learning MJ (I had a couple of MJ lessons previous to that). I went to a very lively beginners class where the teacher really made learning fun and I went with a mixed group equal nos men and women so when we went to dances there were other beginners to dance with. What has put me off it is the venues, not the salsa dance itself, and also the attitudes of some of the dancers.

And as I have learned MJ I find that I now find the salsa music not as much fun as there doesn't seem to be the same variety as there is in MJ music (I esp love blues!). But several of our beginner MJ men also do salsa so when I am dancing with them I am getting led into salsa or merengue moves that seem to work fine in MJ. I still enjoy watching good salsa dancers and if you can go round different venues to find one with the teaching style that 'suits', then you can progress. One thing I would love to learn more of is La Rueda (group dance in a circle) as its a lot of fun, but there are always more than enough women to make up the numbers!

Originally Posted by Minnie M

Have to say the MJ scene is far the most friendly of all the dance style scenes I have been involved in

[latinlover]

Now that my eldest daughter has gone to university and is not around to babysit in the week, I too am starting salsa in an effort to improve my MJ and sustain interest.
I first went 2 years ago and gave up because I was bored with my three moves.My second daughter(not the one who does MJ) actually teaches salsa , but of course getting her to teach me is a no no.and my wife does salsa too,but I want to get to a level where we won't fight and I won't feel inadequate.
I have experienced all the points raised on this thread so it's very interesting to find that I am not the only one in these situations.

one thing I really like about salsa over most MJ venues though;salsa has a much more 'grown up ' attitude in that they don't close at midnight on a saturday!
yes it's more difficult to learn which I'm hoping should make the eventual achievement more worthwhile.I have come to the conclusion that it's vital to forget MJ and learn the basics thoroughly no matter how boring the process , because it is a grounding for all the rest to take off.I am trying not to bring the arrogant 'I can do MJ so I'll be able to pick it up really easy ' attitude.

I didn't have the problem of being refused -must be my boyish good looks and natural ability
nothing to do with being the father of the teacher
the problem with being a beginner is that unlike MJ the tracks are really long so it can be a real ordeal if you only know three moves!
you must admit though ,done well it is really sexy!
I can't wait to be good enough to dance with my wife

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by andydo

I'd agree that salsa is a more difficult dance to learn than modern jive.

It's like saying it's more difficult to shoot a bow & arrow than a gun - anyone can pick up a gun and fire it; but both need skill, practice (and a steady hand) to hit the target every time.

You have to remember that you are learning a new dance, it may be tempting to try to start doing your modern jive moves in salsa or to carry some modern jive habits into salsa, I've seen people do this and it generally just looks a mess.

? Which habits? Moves can be carried across, they just need to be timed right so that they fit in with the footwork patterns - you can only turn a lady one way on beat 2 and another on beat 4.
Some of the more "swing" and 'lower' styling does not lend it's self to Salsa, but it's not the inclusion of MJ style that I think would be the problem, but the exclusion of Salsa style.

Obviously you have a choice of styles in salsa.

Curious: what's the difference between "new-york" and "cuban" styles?

If you are a keen dancer though its probably going to be worth it because ultimately you are probably going to get frustrated with modern jive. Salsa is a more technical dance and the standard of the best dancers and instructors is much higher than you'll ever see in jive.

I take issue with this statement: Why would you get "frustrated" with MJ? The only reason I can think on would be linked to your second statement - not being able to get instruction on how to improve. Now I don't claim to have a huge experience in Salsa teaching, but a bit more in MJ - a few things spring to mind that are wrong with this statement:
1) Salsa is a structured dance that has more "right" and "wrong"'s - you have a definite book that you can refer to and boundaries that define the dance. It must be easier to teach than MJ, therefore the level teachers can get to a higher level
2) Salsa has been in existence for a long time and has had decades of dancers to learn from and improve with; a larger core, a national dance, and much broader populous to get good teachers from.
3) MJ teaches concepts and ideas with some physical guidelines and movements to put them into practice. This is almost the opposite of most structured dances where the teaching is on the physical moves first, then the music second.
4) Salsa has a constant/regular rhythm throughout it's music that is the same range and almost the same sound - MJ can be danced to anything. It must be easier to teach when you know exactly where the skills will be applied. MJ has to teach a generic curriculum because it may be applied to any music.

There may, in the past, have been an issue with no "advanced" techniques being taught in MJ; I think that this has been/is being addressed and the quality/level of the dancers is increasing because there is more on offer to learn. Even the "best" dancers (who also teach) still take lessons and find ways to add/improve their MJ.

I've seen a lot of people from jive start salsa over the years and very few have stuck with it. I think there are various reasons,...

Nothing to do with your reasons; I stopped because a) I moved house and b) the music was getting boring. I think that people moved to Salsa from MJ because they felt that they were not being challenged any more and they could not improve their dancing by attending the same MJ lessons. When they reach the same level in Salsa, they find something else, or return to MJ with re-newed freshness and full of ideas to add into their dancing.

Sure; If you like the dance and you like the music, it's great. Very pleasing to watch good dancers. It will probably improve your dancing. I agree that it's worth taking it up - just don't expect to be a better Salsa dancer than you were MJ dancer.

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Gadget

It's like saying it's more difficult to shoot a bow & arrow than a gun - anyone can pick up a gun and fire it; but both need skill, practice (and a steady hand) to hit the target every time.

Well, you can carry over basic techniques: floorcraft, lead/follow, spinning, etc. Of course you have to keep the beat (your feet) moving in Salsa, you can't take a breather as easily as in MJ. Plus the music tends to be faster.

Originally Posted by Gadget

? Which habits? Moves can be carried across, they just need to be timed right so that they fit in with the footwork patterns - you can only turn a lady one way on beat 2 and another on beat 4.

Salsa moves tend to transfer back into the "shaggy mongrel" of modern jive quite well -- but not vice versa, e.g. try leading a Salsera into a first move and see what happens

In my limited experience on-1 salsa moves are based on 6 steps over 8 counts: 1,2,3,5,6,7 -- in general the 1,2,3 counts are preparation and the 5,6,7 counts are when you can lead the lady to turn. This is vastly different than MJ.

Originally Posted by Gadget

Some of the more "swing" and 'lower' styling does not lend it's self to Salsa, but it's not the inclusion of MJ style that I think would be the problem, but the exclusion of Salsa style.

Dunno' you can certainly put hip-hop styling into salsa -- a lot of the body isolations can be similar.

Originally Posted by Gadget

Curious: what's the difference between "new-york" and "cuban" styles?

One basic difference is that the first tends to be slotted, the other circular.

Originally Posted by Gadget

I take issue with this statement: Why would you get "frustrated" with MJ?

Don't know why anyone else might get frustrated -- I could certainly imagine getting bored -- "Oh look another first move variation".

Originally Posted by Gadget

Now I don't claim to have a huge experience in Salsa teaching, but a bit more in MJ - a few things spring to mind that are wrong with this statement:
1) Salsa is a structured dance that has more "right" and "wrong"'s - you have a definite book that you can refer to and boundaries that define the dance. It must be easier to teach than MJ, therefore the level teachers can get to a higher level.

It is true that some ballroom organisations like ISTD do offer a syllabus for salsa -- I've yet to meet a teacher that uses anything like it

Hmmm, not sure that it's necessarily easier to teach -- for one thing you would have to make sure that the class was dancing to your count before you start a routine, rather than just letting them "stand about".

Originally Posted by Gadget

2) Salsa has been in existence for a long time and has had decades of dancers to learn from and improve with; a larger core, a national dance, and much broader populous to get good teachers from.

Originally Posted by Gadget

3) MJ teaches concepts and ideas with some physical guidelines and movements to put them into practice. This is almost the opposite of most structured dances where the teaching is on the physical moves first, then the music second.

Maybe? Most MJ classes seem to be along the lines of "Here's the four moves we'll in the routine tonight" Not usually many "high-level" concepts.

Originally Posted by Gadget

4) Salsa has a constant/regular rhythm throughout it's music that is the same range and almost the same sound - MJ can be danced to anything. It must be easier to teach when you know exactly where the skills will be applied. MJ has to teach a generic curriculum because it may be applied to any music.

The 2/3 different organisations that I've had classes with tend to dance to music I can only describe as "cuban jazz" -- yes there's a regular beat, but sometimes it disappears while there's an instrumental solo, or even a fairly long "gap" -- not to mention that the beat can get hidden under other bits of percussion, etc.

SpinDr.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Gadget

4) Salsa has a constant/regular rhythm throughout it's music that is the same range and almost the same sound - MJ can be danced to anything. It must be easier to teach when you know exactly where the skills will be applied. MJ has to teach a generic curriculum because it may be applied to any music.

Sorry Gadget ... dont think I agree with this. Some Ceroc teachers quaified as teachers within 6 months of starting dancing ... I know at least one lass who was put forward after only 3 weeks of dancing! Know anyone who could become a competent Salsa instructor in such a short time? MJ must be the easiest dance form in which to become a teacher. This is no disrespect to all the great MJ teachers but where else could someone who can just about dance round a handbag become a 'Dance Teacher' within 6 months? I was at a dance event with 'proper' dance teachers ... people who had had to study at college for years to become teachers ... sort of puts you in your place.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Gus

Some Ceroc teachers quaified as teachers within 6 months of starting dancing ... Know anyone who could become a competent Salsa instructor in such a short time?

I see your point, and agree with it to some extent: but wouldn't a competent person who went on a training course specifically for Salsa teaching be able to do the same thing?

The teaching of moves, anyone can do. Teaching you how to dance is what the better teachers do. Teaching how to dance to the music is what the best teachers do {IMHO} I don't think that it matters too much what discapline it's in; salsa, ballet, MJ...
The point I was tring to make is that since MJ is so varied, draws uppon so many other dance forms and can be applied to such a wide base of music, the teacher must be aware of a broader range of skills and movements than a specialist.
Perhaps it's "jack of all trades" vs "master craftsman"?