Tango - too hot for its own good?

Andreas · 20th-March-2005, 12:29 PM

Hehe, could not resist

We have discussed so much about Blues and its proximity 'problem'. Now, I believe Tango is MUCH MORE SENSUAL than any other dance that I have learnt or seen .. and the list is not exactly short.

So do feel peopl inimidated by the thought of 'proper' Tango, which is a constant tease?

RogerR · 20th-March-2005, 02:19 PM

Look at Salsa it's danced at a range of about 2 feet by newbies and 1 foot by afficionados,and very commercially successful. Look at Lambada it's danced at a range of one or two inches by afficionados and NOT by Brits despite a No 1 pop chart music launch.

Argentine Tango is really only danced by a few Brits who get past the contact and onto the dance. Dancing Tango in English - at a decent separation is as like Tango as the Tango drink is like fresh Orange juice

Andreas · 20th-March-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerR

Look at Salsa it's danced at a range of about 2 feet by newbies and 1 foot by afficionados,and very commercially successful. Look at Lambada it's danced at a range of one or two inches by afficionados and NOT by Brits despite a No 1 pop chart music launch.

Argentine Tango is really only danced by a few Brits who get past the contact and onto the dance. Dancing Tango in English - at a decent separation is as like Tango as the Tango drink is like fresh Orange juice

Salsa is harmless by comparison. Lambada is raunchy but not really suggestive as such, despite the hip contact.

Tango is insinuating at all times. It looks harmless if done stiffly but as soon as both partners start to play ... So yes, your comparison with the drink is probably correct.

But that supports my argument, it is too hot or its own good. Tango only looks really stunning if this barrier has fallen. Wouldn't you agree?

RogerR · 20th-March-2005, 03:33 PM

NO Tango looks good for those who are prepared to put the effort in. It doesn't need to be neutered into Tangon and plodded at a range of a metre or so by disinterested singles masquerading as a dancing couple.

**ElaineB** · 20th-March-2005, 08:49 PM

If the music is being interpreted, the leader will have the follower up close for some of the time and further apart at other time, depending on what the leader wants their partner to do. It is certainly the most sensual dance that I have partaken in!

Too hot for it's own good? Not if you look at the number of people attending the class in Bristol!

Elaine

Clive Long · 21st-March-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Hehe, could not resist

We have discussed so much about Blues and its proximity 'problem'. Now, I believe Tango is MUCH MORE SENSUAL than any other dance that I have learnt or seen .. and the list is not exactly short.

So do feel peopl inimidated by the thought of 'proper' Tango, which is a constant tease?

OK.

Based on my vast experience of Argentinian Tango (4 lessons) ....

I don't feel AT is a tease - it is more sensual, for me, than Ceroc - but for following reasons.

Ceroc "sensual" moves (the ones I know and do really badly) involve pressing or rubbing parts of one's body against other parts of one's partners body. We are right into sleaze-bag territory if your partner is not happy with that - but that's not my point in this post so please don't pick up that - it is only for comparison against ...

Two simple "moves" or positions I have experienced in AT

1) at the end of the "basic walk" (I don't know its proper name) after the woman has stepped back two (is it three?) steps she slowly drags her right foot acroos her left, toe down, so her ankles are crossed and right heel raised. Then with torsoes parallel, I turn her torso, but our lower bodies remain in a "different vertical plane" to our torsoes. There results a "tension" in her body. From this position I can move her into a forward or backward Ocho. There is no "groin grinding" going on but the sensation I get, from feeling that tension in my partner's body, is electric and pulse-raising.

2) With the woman's feet crossed, she can drag her foot across mine (difficult to describe), where the contact is all around the shin and calf area.

Part of the sensation I experience while trying AT, is almost being "outside" looking at us dance and seeing the "fluidity" resulting from a well executed AT move (I think I would be horrified if I saw myself videoed). That's why I can watch good AT dancers and enjoy almost as much as if I am dancing.

For me, AT inhabits a blurred world between art form and sensual experience - and long may that uncertainty remain.

Clive

**David Bailey** · 21st-March-2005, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clive Long

Based on my vast experience of Argentinian Tango (4 lessons) ....

2 more than me, but what the hell, I'll add my opinion based on my dim recollection...
I'm not sure about which dance is more "sensual", mainly because I'm not really sure how we're using the word in this context. But I think AT is more intimate than ceroc to a beginner, simply because in AT you're pressing body-to-body against your partner, and leading with the torso rather than the hands. Again, for a beginner, ceroc is usually more casual in nature - you swap partners quicker in the class, and you're generally not that close to your partner for beginning moves.
So I'd say AT is more immediately intimate than MJ. However, as the recent deluge of "blues" posts show, MJ can be pretty darned intimate later on...

**David Bailey** · 21st-March-2005, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Salsa is harmless by comparison.

Really? Maybe it's the people and the venues, but salsa clubs seem much sleazier than tango venues. Admittedly, I've only been to 2 tango places, one of which featured Clive James - he tried to chat my partner up, the sleazebag

. That experience aside, they seemed classier joints than the average salsa venue.

RogerR · 21st-March-2005, 07:14 PM

AT also demands that partners can actually dance slowly and well most MJers cannot dance slowly they do the step then pause til the next beat.

**JonD** · 21st-March-2005, 07:19 PM

I've been tempted to post on many occasions but this one I just can't resist! Mind you, I've only been dancing Tango for about 2 1/2 years so I'm still very much learning to walk.

Tango is, for me, an intense and very personal dance which can be incredibly sensual but isn't "sexy" in the same way as some Jive moves are described as sexy. The sensuality results from the tension between you and your partner - a tension that is independent of your bodily contact but exists in the space between you like a ball of energy. Sorry to get poetic, but Tango is a dance of the heart and is led and followed from the heart. When you create that connection you achieve a tension between you that is both intense and passionate. It doesn't happen with every partner. It's my experience that you have to "open" yourself to dance Tango and not everyone is prepared to do that - they can't take the intensity of connection that results. And sometimes it just doesn't work! Then you resort to a kind of academic lead/follow exercise but that, to me, isn't really Tango. When you do have that energy then the dance is sublime.

In Tango the principal that the leader invites the follower to make a movement is the same as in any other partner dance. The follower only follows because they choose to, not because they are obliged to. A follower teasing you - a kind of "will I, won't I" coquettishness is one of the things that can make a dance really sexy. In Tango you have a lot of time to play with that. In Jive everything tends to happen more quickly but, for me, one of the delights is dancing with a lady who likes to "play" and giving her the room to do so. (I can remember ElaineB comprehensively "out smouldered" me at Yeovil a year or so ago!)

On a more prosaic note, there is very little groin contact in Tango, even when you are dancing close embrace. You tend to keep a little distance between your lower bodies so you have room to take a step - that's a difference from Blues close hold where you tend to shuffle rather than step (or if you do step then you take the follower's leg with yours). For me, it isn't sexy when a woman glues her abdomen to mine. I refer to it as being "clingfilmed" and it tends to destroy tension - to be coarse about it, it's a bit like she's rolling over on her back and putting her legs in the air. Sorry! Far more sexy is leading small backward ochos from close embrace where your partner's chest stirs gently against your own - that's much more sensual.

I'm not a great fan of grinding or "sinful" moves in Jive or any other dance so I'm probably biased. Even though I was dancing at the time, I saw the display of copulation at Bognor that Andy McGregor commented on in another thread and, while I'm happy for other people to enjoy their dancing in whatever way they fancy, it didn't do anything for me.

Tango can be incredibly "hot" but not in an overt way - it's more a sensual caress than a pelvic thrust! So, I suppose it can be too "hot" for some people but for others it's a delight. (Oh, and I can't resist telling you that I'm off to Buenos Aires for 3 weeks on 1st April - yippee!!!!)

Jon

**David Bailey** · 21st-March-2005, 08:51 PM

Boy, that sounds good - maybe I should take it up again...!

Andreas · 21st-March-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

.... lotsa really good stuff ....

Excellent post, pretty much sums it up!

Andreas · 21st-March-2005, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Really? Maybe it's the people and the venues, but salsa clubs seem much sleazier than tango venues. Admittedly, I've only been to 2 tango places, one of which featured Clive James - he tried to chat my partner up, the sleazebag

. That experience aside, they seemed classier joints than the average salsa venue.

You are right. However, I did not speak about sleaziness, SENSUALITY was the word!

RogerR · 22nd-March-2005, 12:02 AM

Salsa tends to be in dark rooms with only enough light to dance by. Tango tends towards softly lit but better lit rooms. There is a lot going on in the darkness of a salsa pit I know I worked at one for eight years. http://www.jivemaster.fsnet.co.uk/disco_pic.htm is actually my disco at a salsa night.

Clive Long · 22nd-March-2005, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

Mind you, I've only been dancing Tango for about 2 1/2 years so I'm still very much learning to walk.

"My" teacher says it takes 10 years to learn how to walk

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

... The sensuality results from the tension between you and your partner - a tension that is independent of your bodily contact but exists in the space between you like a ball of energy. Sorry to get poetic, but Tango is a dance of the heart and is led and followed from the heart. When you create that connection you achieve a tension between you that is both intense and passionate. ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

(Oh, and I can't resist telling you that I'm off to Buenos Aires for 3 weeks on 1st April - yippee!!!!)

One can go off people very quickly ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

I've been tempted to post on many occasions but this one I just can't resist!

Great post Jon. May it be the first of several of such quality.
Clive

**Gadget** · 22nd-March-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

Tango is, for me, an intense and very personal dance which can be incredibly sensual but isn't "sexy" in the same way as some Jive moves are described as sexy. The sensuality results from the tension between you and your partner - a tension that is independent of your bodily contact but exists in the space between you like a ball of energy. Sorry to get poetic, but Tango is a dance of the heart and is led and followed from the heart. When you create that connection you achieve a tension between you that is both intense and passionate. It doesn't happen with every partner. It's my experience that you have to "open" yourself to dance Tango and not everyone is prepared to do that - they can't take the intensity of connection that results. And sometimes it just doesn't work! Then you resort to a kind of academic lead/follow exercise but that, to me, isn't really Tango. When you do have that energy then the dance is sublime.

{I was trying to trim that down, but just had to quote it again in full

}
I would like to think that this connection is what we strive for in any form of partner dance. It may not be as evedent from the outside as in tango, but it's in the eyes.

Little Monkey · 23rd-March-2005, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clive Long

"My" teacher says it takes 10 years to learn how to walk

God - I've got a lot of walking ahead of me before I get anywhere near "ok". Been to 7 classes so far, and am absolutely loving it, but boy is it much harder work than MJ!! And in my opinion - soooooo much more sensual. Wish there were more days in the week..... Two or three nights of tango per week would do nicely, thankyouverymuch!!

Hmmmmm, and I guess the biggest struggle for me is to be a bit more serious, and stop giggling......

Which, believe it or not, I CAN do, with a lot of effort!

Hooray, only 4 1/2 hours until my next tango class!

LM

**JonD** · 23rd-March-2005, 07:11 PM

[quote]

Quote:

"My" teacher says it takes 10 years to learn how to walk

Terrible isn't it! I thought I could walk pretty well until I started Tango and then I realised that I had no idea. It's being absolutely grounded and in your own balance on every step - and doing that while being able to make a step at a constant pace if you choose to. I'm told that the greatest compliment an AT dancer can receive is to be told they "walk well". It'll be a hell of a lot more than 10 years before I can hope to hear that.

Other than not wobbling, my biggest problem is relaxing my shoulders and lower back - I'm getting better but I fear there is still an element of Quasimodo about my posture! Hopefully 3 weeks of total exposure will help cure that.

To beat the giggles try closing your eyes and consciously clearing your mind as if you were meditating - sense the lead rather than feel it. You'll still be able to follow and it might help you to be less nervous about the connection, which might be what is causing the giggles. Worth a try!

Quote:

Hooray, only 4 1/2 hours until my next tango class!

Do you go to Ricardo and Jenny's class? We had a fab private lesson with them at Camber in November.

Jon

Clive Long · 23rd-March-2005, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

Other than not wobbling, my biggest problem is relaxing my shoulders and lower back

Oh thank god it's not only me who does those things. At the end of one dance my forearm tension is like that of a Scotsman grasping the last pint of the night

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

Do you go to Ricardo and Jenny's class?

Unfortunately a few hundred miles separates me from their teaching. However, when I get the time I go to Bianca in Kew and I will make the time to go to TangoFandango in Wimbledon (Leonardo?) of whom I hear great things from two dancers I respect

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

We had a fab private lesson with them at Camber in November.
Jon

You really know how to needle me, don't you?

**JonD** · 23rd-March-2005, 08:02 PM

Sorry Clive!

You should come down to a "Tango Mango" here in Devon. Fernando Guidi and Ruth Zimmerman teach in Totnes - have a look at the imaginatively named http://www.tangoindevon.co.uk/ for details. There's one next week and Gisela and Jordi are coming over from Barcelona. Jordi doesn't dance Tango but is a Tai Chi master and did a fantastic "Tango & Tai Chi" workshop at the Tangoneta in Barcelona last October - he's an incredible guy and will introduce you to the concept of "leading by intention". (It's spooky but it works - when I'm not trying to relax my shoulders, stand up straight, not fall over etc. etc.) Gisela is a fab dancer and teacher - I once did a 2 hour workshop with her on "how your feet move", starting with the structure of the foot and working through just what happens when you take a step. It sounds crazy but it was really fun and helpful.

Hmmm, can't leave you un-needled. Have you been to El Corte (http://www.elcorte.com) in Nijmegen? We were there for the 2 day New Year Tango Party. Eric, who runs the place is a fantastic teacher as are Komala and Stephan who teach there. We met Komala and Stephan when we spent a week at http://www.tangovalley.com/ last summer. We're going back this summer for another dose of paradise!

If it's any comfort, I don't think I've got anything else to needle you with. Except, perhaps, details of where we're spending our first 2 weeks in Buenos Aires - http://www.mansiondandiroyal.com/

I'll get you a beer or three by way of apology when we meet!

Jon

20th-March-2005, 12:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
Andreas Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: London Posts: 1,225 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 500	Tango - too hot for its own good? Hehe, could not resist We have discussed so much about Blues and its proximity 'problem'. Now, I believe Tango is MUCH MORE SENSUAL than any other dance that I have learnt or seen .. and the list is not exactly short. So do feel peopl inimidated by the thought of 'proper' Tango, which is a constant tease?

20th-March-2005, 02:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
RogerR Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: London Posts: 430 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 110	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? Look at Salsa it's danced at a range of about 2 feet by newbies and 1 foot by afficionados,and very commercially successful. Look at Lambada it's danced at a range of one or two inches by afficionados and NOT by Brits despite a No 1 pop chart music launch. Argentine Tango is really only danced by a few Brits who get past the contact and onto the dance. Dancing Tango in English - at a decent separation is as like Tango as the Tango drink is like fresh Orange juice Last edited by RogerR; 20th-March-2005 at 02:29 PM.

20th-March-2005, 03:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
RogerR Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: London Posts: 430 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 110	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? NO Tango looks good for those who are prepared to put the effort in. It doesn't need to be neutered into Tangon and plodded at a range of a metre or so by disinterested singles masquerading as a dancing couple.

20th-March-2005, 08:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
ElaineB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Cider with Rosie l Posts: 1,199 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 409	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? If the music is being interpreted, the leader will have the follower up close for some of the time and further apart at other time, depending on what the leader wants their partner to do. It is certainly the most sensual dance that I have partaken in! Too hot for it's own good? Not if you look at the number of people attending the class in Bristol! Elaine __________________ Too much of a good thing is wonderful

21st-March-2005, 07:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
RogerR Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: London Posts: 430 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 110	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? AT also demands that partners can actually dance slowly and well most MJers cannot dance slowly they do the step then pause til the next beat.

21st-March-2005, 07:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
JonD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 537 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 688	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? I've been tempted to post on many occasions but this one I just can't resist! Mind you, I've only been dancing Tango for about 2 1/2 years so I'm still very much learning to walk. Tango is, for me, an intense and very personal dance which can be incredibly sensual but isn't "sexy" in the same way as some Jive moves are described as sexy. The sensuality results from the tension between you and your partner - a tension that is independent of your bodily contact but exists in the space between you like a ball of energy. Sorry to get poetic, but Tango is a dance of the heart and is led and followed from the heart. When you create that connection you achieve a tension between you that is both intense and passionate. It doesn't happen with every partner. It's my experience that you have to "open" yourself to dance Tango and not everyone is prepared to do that - they can't take the intensity of connection that results. And sometimes it just doesn't work! Then you resort to a kind of academic lead/follow exercise but that, to me, isn't really Tango. When you do have that energy then the dance is sublime. In Tango the principal that the leader invites the follower to make a movement is the same as in any other partner dance. The follower only follows because they choose to, not because they are obliged to. A follower teasing you - a kind of "will I, won't I" coquettishness is one of the things that can make a dance really sexy. In Tango you have a lot of time to play with that. In Jive everything tends to happen more quickly but, for me, one of the delights is dancing with a lady who likes to "play" and giving her the room to do so. (I can remember ElaineB comprehensively "out smouldered" me at Yeovil a year or so ago!) On a more prosaic note, there is very little groin contact in Tango, even when you are dancing close embrace. You tend to keep a little distance between your lower bodies so you have room to take a step - that's a difference from Blues close hold where you tend to shuffle rather than step (or if you do step then you take the follower's leg with yours). For me, it isn't sexy when a woman glues her abdomen to mine. I refer to it as being "clingfilmed" and it tends to destroy tension - to be coarse about it, it's a bit like she's rolling over on her back and putting her legs in the air. Sorry! Far more sexy is leading small backward ochos from close embrace where your partner's chest stirs gently against your own - that's much more sensual. I'm not a great fan of grinding or "sinful" moves in Jive or any other dance so I'm probably biased. Even though I was dancing at the time, I saw the display of copulation at Bognor that Andy McGregor commented on in another thread and, while I'm happy for other people to enjoy their dancing in whatever way they fancy, it didn't do anything for me. Tango can be incredibly "hot" but not in an overt way - it's more a sensual caress than a pelvic thrust! So, I suppose it can be too "hot" for some people but for others it's a delight. (Oh, and I can't resist telling you that I'm off to Buenos Aires for 3 weeks on 1st April - yippee!!!!) Jon

21st-March-2005, 08:51 PM	#11 (permalink)
David Bailey Formerly known as DavidJames Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Norf Lundin Posts: 14,319 Status: Yes Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 8 Rep.: 3852	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? Boy, that sounds good - maybe I should take it up again...!

22nd-March-2005, 12:02 AM	#14 (permalink)
RogerR Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: London Posts: 430 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 110	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? Salsa tends to be in dark rooms with only enough light to dance by. Tango tends towards softly lit but better lit rooms. There is a lot going on in the darkness of a salsa pit I know I worked at one for eight years. http://www.jivemaster.fsnet.co.uk/disco_pic.htm is actually my disco at a salsa night.

23rd-March-2005, 08:02 PM	#20 (permalink)
JonD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 537 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 688	Re: Tango - too hot for its own good? Sorry Clive! You should come down to a "Tango Mango" here in Devon. Fernando Guidi and Ruth Zimmerman teach in Totnes - have a look at the imaginatively named http://www.tangoindevon.co.uk/ for details. There's one next week and Gisela and Jordi are coming over from Barcelona. Jordi doesn't dance Tango but is a Tai Chi master and did a fantastic "Tango & Tai Chi" workshop at the Tangoneta in Barcelona last October - he's an incredible guy and will introduce you to the concept of "leading by intention". (It's spooky but it works - when I'm not trying to relax my shoulders, stand up straight, not fall over etc. etc.) Gisela is a fab dancer and teacher - I once did a 2 hour workshop with her on "how your feet move", starting with the structure of the foot and working through just what happens when you take a step. It sounds crazy but it was really fun and helpful. Hmmm, can't leave you un-needled. Have you been to El Corte (http://www.elcorte.com) in Nijmegen? We were there for the 2 day New Year Tango Party. Eric, who runs the place is a fantastic teacher as are Komala and Stephan who teach there. We met Komala and Stephan when we spent a week at http://www.tangovalley.com/ last summer. We're going back this summer for another dose of paradise! If it's any comfort, I don't think I've got anything else to needle you with. Except, perhaps, details of where we're spending our first 2 weeks in Buenos Aires - http://www.mansiondandiroyal.com/ I'll get you a beer or three by way of apology when we meet! Jon Last edited by JonD; 23rd-March-2005 at 08:06 PM.

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