Why not Ballroom?

[Sparkles]

After a few conversations with MJers (mostly about SDF) I'm getting the impression that several (it may be many, but I'm not sure) people really don't like the idea of ballroom dancing (including both modern and latin disciplines).

I was just wondering why this is...
Is it because of the footwork?
Or the routine element - ie that it's not so easy to freestyle?
Or is it because it's harder (IMO) for individuals to put their personal stamp on the dances with musical interpretation?
Or is it some other off-putting element (I know the music is certainly not to everyones' tastes )?

As someone who spent a long time doing ballroom dancing and greatly enjoying it (for the most part), and someone who feels that those years of learning ballroom have enhanced rather than detracted from my MJ experience I'm baffled by people who dance MJ (and obviously enjoy it) but are not interested in ballroom.

Maybe it's just horses for courses, but I'd be interested in feedback on this.
Thanks
S. x

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

I was just wondering why this is...
Is it because of the footwork?
Or the routine element - ie that it's not so easy to freestyle?
Or is it because it's harder (IMO) for individuals to put their personal stamp on the dances with musical interpretation?
Or is it some other off-putting element (I know the music is certainly not to everyones' tastes )?

As someone who spent a long time doing ballroom dancing and greatly enjoying it (for the most part), and someone who feels that those years of learning ballroom have enhanced rather than detracted from my MJ experience I'm baffled by people who dance MJ (and obviously enjoy it) but are not interested in ballroom.

Well, I spent quite a few years doing ballroom and latin, more years ago than I like to think about... and I certainly agree that the experience adds, rather than detracts, and on the occasions that I get to do a bit of Waltz or Quickstep, and less so Foxtrot, I find I can remember a reasonable amount (tho not the others, nor enough Latin to make a reasonably interesting freestyle dance), and I enjoy it a lot.

But it is a lot harder. There are ten dances to learn and progress in, not, er, one... and life is busy.

It's not the difficulty that puts me off, once I believe that I'm capable of achieving something - and indeed in recent times the thought has crossed my mind to give up MJ completely (or at least other than the odd social thing) and switch to Tango...

But I'm not sure I could stand an exclusive diet of Tango music, and the same applies to ballroom.

And I'm not at all sure I could devote the amount of time to either, to get good enough to be happy with my rate of progress, in any kind of sensible timescale.

I might dip my toe in the SNS water at some point, but that would mean missing Cat's WC classes, and that's another hard dance to get good at.

Invent the 14 day week, somebody, please

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

But I'm not sure I could stand an exclusive diet of Tango music, and the same applies to ballroom.

Though what about the track the tango couple picked for last Saturday's SDF?

I thought it was pretty much the most innovative choice of music for a showcase that I've ever seen.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Though what about the track the tango couple picked for last Saturday's SDF?

I thought it was pretty much the most innovative choice of music for a showcase that I've ever seen.

How can you call it innovative? Leroc2000 used it for a MJ heat two years ago! (Hey, it's not much over 180bpm...)

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

How can you call it innovative? Leroc2000 used it for a MJ heat two years ago! (Hey, it's not much over 180bpm...)

I assume they used it for dancing MJ to it, though. It was using it (what's the track btw??) for a tango that I thought was fantastic.

If the ballroom world could figure out a way of using more modern music for the ballroom dances, I think ballroom would be far easier to resurrect.

Haven't been following the ballroom music thread, maybe I should...

Hey, there's lots of music in 3/4 time in the C&W world

[Divissima]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I assume they used it for dancing MJ to it, though. It was using it (what's the track btw??)

Objection (Tango) from Shakira's Laundry Service album. All tracks from SDF are up on the Amante Ballo website, btw.

At the Leroc comp they used it for MJ, as you might expect. I have vivid memories of watching Trampy and Debster dance to it - it was the hottest day of the year so far and the aircon had been out for much of the afternoon due to a power failure. I thought Debster was going to spontaneously combust

(With apologies for the split infinitive.)

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Divissima

I have vivid memories of watching Trampy and Debster dance to it - it was the hottest day of the year so far and the aircon had been out for much of the afternoon due to a power failure. I thought Debster was going to spontaneously combust

What about Trampy?!? I think I nearly died. Twice.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

After a few conversations with MJers (mostly about SDF) I'm getting the impression that several (it may be many, but I'm not sure) people really don't like the idea of ballroom dancing (including both modern and latin disciplines).

I was just wondering why this is...
Is it because of the footwork?
Or the routine element - ie that it's not so easy to freestyle?
Or is it because it's harder (IMO) for individuals to put their personal stamp on the dances with musical interpretation?
Or is it some other off-putting element (I know the music is certainly not to everyones' tastes )?

Two things that would put me off doing ballroom locally would be - a) the age range - either very young or very old but more importantly b) you need a regular partner to go along to classes with!

[Katie]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

After a few conversations with MJers (mostly about SDF) I'm getting the impression that several (it may be many, but I'm not sure) people really don't like the idea of ballroom dancing (including both modern and latin disciplines).

I think it is a case for some that, once you've found MJ, you don't feel the need to do Ballroom (plus the fact it takes a lot more work and patience to become good).

I agree with you that I'm glad I did Ballroom first as it was a good foundation - however, deep down I knew that I was looking for something else - at the time I didn't know what it was or where to find it and then by default, I discovered MJ and after my first lesson I knew that this was going to be the start of something special....

[Little Monkey]

I'd love to do ballroom!

In particular interested in learning the latin dances..... Remember a teensy wee bit from doing ballroom as a kid, enough to do the basics of a cha-cha...

My problems are: No partner, not enough money, and not enough time! I think I'll just stick to ceroc and Argentine Tango for now......

Monkey

[DavidY]

I did Ballroom & Latin at Uni. After leaving I still took lessons (and still do it even now) but spend much less time on it and as a consequence I'm a lot worse at it than I used to be.

I agree with much of what has been said already - as ChrisA says there are 10 different (Latin + Ballroom) dances to remember and keep up. If I spend time getting the waltz up to scratch, I've forgotten how to quickstep.

I'm also not good at leading as I tend to have lessons with a fixed partner doing fixed routines.

Sometimes in a ballroom lesson when doing the Jive/Cha Cha comes on, I do miss the flexibility to break away from the routine and interpret music (or at least to attempt to).

[David Bailey]

I too have been seduced from ballroom. Mainly because MJ is more fun. Obvious really... The points about ballroom having a steeper learning curve, more limited music, and different age range are all pertinent, but the main attraction for me is that you can play around in MJ so much more than in almost any other dance.

For example, I was dancing a cha-cha to one track last night, and my partner suddenly decided she wanted to revert to ceroc. So we did. Could never have done that anywhere else.

Also, of course, people are nicer in MJ compared to any other dance scene.

[Clive Long]

I have been to all of six "ballroom" lessons at Ashtons - so (as always) this is an (uninformed) opinion - but may reflect how people new to ballroom react to it.

Originally Posted by DavidY

I did Ballroom & Latin at Uni. After leaving I still took lessons (and still do it even now) but spend much less time on it and as a consequence I'm a lot worse at it than I used to be.

I agree with much of what has been said already - as ChrisA says there are 10 different (Latin + Ballroom) dances to remember and keep up. If I spend time getting the waltz up to scratch, I've forgotten how to quickstep.
<< snip >>

I have read from those who have learned ballroom that there are 10 disciplines (a most appropriate word methinks). But why do you have to learn all of them? Cha-cha (cha-cha-cha ?) seems fussy and absurd to me - so I won't learn it and won't dance it. I'm a social dancer - I don't have to dance every track in an evening. I know if you want to compete then THE RULES say you have to learn all the styles. Fine. Great. Work hard. Become better. I can watch, appreciate and admire your dancing. I won't join you on the competition floor.

Originally Posted by DavidY

Sometimes in a ballroom lesson when doing the Jive/Cha Cha comes on, I do miss the flexibility to break away from the routine and interpret music (or at least to attempt to).

So the need to be correct in ballroom stifles your desire to enjoy the dance. In this case ballroom is just an exercise in body control I think. Remind me again why we dance?

Originally Posted by Lynn

Two things that would put me off doing ballroom locally would be - a) the age range - either very young or very old

Off-putting yes if one is looking for a social dimension beyond the dancing. However, I generally find the ladies of a certain age much better company than those of an later vintage.

Originally Posted by Lynn

but more importantly b) you need a regular partner to go along to classes with!

Not so (or it ain't necessarily so). Again looking from a social dancer's perspective and what I remember of my Mum and Dad dancing whilst I sat glumly and passively on the side, they danced with many different people through an evening. I accept, to compete then you need a regular partner.

So why doesn't ballroom appeal to many? I think all you need to do is look at the performance of Ice-Man Alex and his partner on SDF. As a dancer you may marvel at the technical brilliance of it all - but I think the perspective should be from a non(neo)-dancer who is interested in trying out a dance style. You don't appreciate what relentless hard work is involved in producing what the IceMan can do. It looks soulless and robotic to you. You look at MJ - it seems slightly chaotic and a whole lot of fun. Go figure which one you would choose.

Having appeared so negative about ballroom I am enjoying SNS on Tuesday. Why? Maybe I like the contrast and have reached a level of "dance maturity" where I can now appreciate ballroom.

Clive

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

So the need to be correct in ballroom stifles your desire to enjoy the dance. In this case ballroom is just an exercise in body control I think.

I don't agree with this. Without frame, without rise and fall, without the footwork that makes it possible, a waltz, quickstep or foxtrot is just a random shuffle round the floor... but with them, the feeling of connection and moving as one is lovely.

Being correct in ballroom makes it much more enjoyable, and, dare I say it, fun too

[Ballroom queen]

I started dancing ballroom about 10 years ago, by chance really - my flat mate dragged me along. And I loved it. after a year or two I discovered ceroc, struggled with no footwork, but loved the whole social scene. However over the years wanted more - I loved Mike and Linda's Strictly ballroom, tried Tango, Salsa, Lindy, then hipsters started - all with a little bit more of a challenge than ceroc. However, for a while now I have been wanting to get back to ballroom. we are very lucky to now have nosequins - a ballroom night with ceroc style teaching and numbers, no need to have a partner, and be an OAP!!! There are 10 dances, but I doubt they will ever get to a paso doble or quick waltz, in fact if we want the samba and tango we need to pester Mike (so Hannes told me tonight) - the SNS web site suggests that they will only do 5-6 dances. As for the complexity of dances - the fact that most people at SNS come from a dance background it must be easier, some have done footwork etc at the many weekenders, and I have to say I think the standard in the freestyle is pretty impressive considering its only been going for a couple of months. As for the music - yes, its hard finding decent waltzes, but the variety is fab compared to a Tango or Salsa night. I reckon if SNS continues and Mike Ellard can find more venues we may see a revival of ballroom dancing. I suggest anyone in north / west london who hasn't tried SNS gives it a go, you may be pleasently surprised.

[frodo]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

...I'm getting the impression that several (it may be many, but I'm not sure) people really don't like the idea of ballroom dancing (including both modern and latin disciplines)...

Don't like the idea of ballroom dancing competitions. Based on what I've seen in the past on TV, I would have given it a very wide berth. It's not an image I would want to have anything to do with.

In particular seeing young children so dressed up and doing competitions seems quite sad.

Originally Posted by Lynn

Two things that would put me off doing ballroom locally would be - a) the age range - either very young or very old but more importantly b) you need a regular partner to go along to classes with!

Both of those would put me off. They are unlikely to apply at University classes. Elsewhere they don't apply everywhere but it seems very patchy ( unlike MJ which you can generally count on consistently ).

Originally Posted by Clive Long

I have been to ...
...
... appreciate ballroom

(pretty much entire post)

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I don't agree with this. Without frame, without rise and fall, without the footwork that makes it possible, a waltz, quickstep or foxtrot is just a random shuffle round the floor... but with them, the feeling of connection and moving as one is lovely.

Being correct in ballroom makes it much more enjoyable, and, dare I say it, fun too

Certainly being correct makes it much more enjoyable, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable if you're not, or not yet doing it entirely 'correctly'.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by frodo

Certainly being correct makes it much more enjoyable, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable if you're not, or not yet doing it entirely 'correctly'.

Never suggested you couldn't enjoy it without being correct. Just picking up what I thought was the suggestion that all that correctness destroys the enjoyment.

It doesn't, it enhances it.

[Gadget]

What puts me off:
- limited music.
- strict "right" and "wrong" ways of doing things
- fixed partner
- routines and fixed x count moves
- time and finances

Why I would still like to:
- improved posture.
- better understanding (and practical application of) body movement and control.
- better discipline over my feet.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

- fixed partner
- routines

Apart from comps, I don't recall any routines or fixed partner dancing from my ballroom days.

strict "right" and "wrong" ways of doing things

There are plenty of right and wrong ways to do bits of MJ. "Right" and "Wrong" boils down to "feels/looks nice" and "doesn't", at the end of the day.

Doing it right makes it feel nice. There is no downside to doing it right, except the effort it takes to be able to.

Agreed, the music, and its interpretation, are more accessible in MJ, but they are still there in ballroom and latin. I was never good enough to be particularly interpretive, but there are things you can do with the music.