Learning Salsa after doing Jive

[stewart38]

After 10yrs of doing Jive I finally decide to give this Salsa thing ago.

I was told by teacher to leave jive/ceroc at the door

Ok at start not a problem foot work ok all new but as weeks went on , I seem to switch into jive mode on turns etc

Is it too late to teach an old dog new tricks, i have no intention of giving up salsa

Maybe it would have been easier to have learned Salsa then do Jive ?

What have other people found when doing one type of dance for years then trying another . (yrs ago I could slip from line dancing to barn dancing to Jive no problem )

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by stewart38

What have other people found when doing one type of dance for years then trying another?

I've been doing Lindy for a few months now, and I still find myself having occasional "jive moments". I just laugh it off now, keep dancing and get myself back into Lindy. No big deal. I don't have your ten years of MJ experience, though.
This mostly causes me problems when doing Lindy with folks who (I know) also know jive.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by stewart38

I was told by teacher to leave jive/ceroc at the door

Weeelllll, I think that's a bit simplistic, and I'd hope the teacher wasn't being patronising...
Jive moves, turns, dance discipline, leading / following techniques, and even the experience of learning, can all be very useful. I did a horrendously complex salsa class last night, the only things that helped me through were when I recognised a jive move, so I could concentrate on the new stuff.

However, having said that, as a beginner, this is probably good advice to "clear your head".

The classic problems of moving from jive to salsa are:
1. Timing
Salsa music is very different, you have to hear the beat, and it's much more subtle than the average MJ track. Listen to lots and lots of salsa music, and practice moving to the beat - again, lots and lots. The good news is that you don't need a partner for this, so it's dancing-in-front-of-the-mirror time

2. Footwork
Yep, salsa has some, and it's mandatory, i.e. you have to move your feet in the way you're told to. This is a big problem if, like most of us, you're used to making it up as you go along, and doing whatever you think looks good.

3. Style
Bit more subtle this, but some jivers are "balls-of-your-feet" dancers (I was), bouncing up and down a lot with moves. Salsa is just not done that way, certainly when you're learning, so you're better off staying flat-footed.
"Style" in terms of wiggles, hips, look-and-feel - don't worry about that, it'll come when you get comfortable with the dance.

Originally Posted by stewart38

Maybe it would have been easier to have learned Salsa then do Jive ?

I've heard this a few times, it has some plausibility, but I don't know - you might find problems adjusting to the more loose style of MJ if you're too rigid a salsa dancer. Trying to learn both at the same time is probably not a good idea though

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by stewart38

I was told by teacher to leave jive/ceroc at the door.

It helps me to concentrate on the music that accompanies the new dance. So in my case, I find it increasingly difficult to MJ to something with a Cha Cha rhythm for instance. (However, as everyone knows, there's only one Salsa track played in a loop so this should simplify things for you.) You don't have to leave all your MJ outside because you can keep your lead/follow, your musicality and your class observation (which arm goes where, which way does the girl turn etc.)
You can also try throwing some Salsa into your MJ - try a few cross-body leads and see what happens!

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by stewart38

After 10yrs of doing Jive I finally decide to give this Salsa thing ago.

I was told by teacher to leave jive/ceroc at the door

Ok at start not a problem foot work ok all new but as weeks went on , I seem to switch into jive mode on turns etc

Is it too late to teach an old dog new tricks, i have no intention of giving up salsa

Maybe it would have been easier to have learned Salsa then do Jive ?

What have other people found when doing one type of dance for years then trying another . (yrs ago I could slip from line dancing to barn dancing to Jive no problem )

Leaving Jive at the door is silly comment of a teacher who fails to grasp the concept.

I too have started Salsa after I was well on my way in MJ and it was a good choice. Why? Because you know plenty of moves, all you need to concentrate is getting your basics to a level that makes it second nature. Not for no reason do Salsa teachers use Merengue for teaching complex moves, similar with MJ. It allows you to familiarise yourself with the move and then string the footwork into it.

So simply focus on the basics, keep counting until you don't need to count anymore. I have had to count myself through more complex moves for about half a year. Even now, when I practice new moves I will be counting.

The trap you need to be careful of not falling into is doing too many reverse turns. That is the greatest weakness of Salsa teachers in London (apart rom the ego perhaps). They keep teaching all these reverse turns, which means it constantly kills the flow in freestyle because they are not natural turns, hence you have to go a loooong way to get the girl to turn that way, or more precisely, not to step back when you need her to step forwards ...

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

The classic problems of moving from jive to salsa are:
1. Timing
2. Footwork
3. Style

Yes, all of the above, plus one other major difference. Salsa is not driven by the "in and out"/"tension and compression" movement that powers much of Jive. Consequently the lead is different - a softer lead in many ways. Unlearning the compression/tension took me a long time

[spindr]

I think that there are three different issues learning salsa after learning jive for a while:
1). You have to accept being a beginner again.
2). It's a different dance
2a). but it has some similarities.
3). The music's different

I found being a beginner again was painful -- but you just have to grit your teeth and try and keep going -- there's all the old issues: I've just done a first move (sorry cross-body lead) for the fourteenth time and can't remember any other moves, agghhh help!!! Hang-on freestyle -- what did we do in the class again?

There's no getting away from the fact that it is a different dance -- I could even argue that the lead/follow is actually subtly different -- at least some teachers tend to "prep" moves a lot more.

Part of the problem is also that salsa is almost similar enough to start to be like jive (in a sort of broad sense) but when "things go wrong" (tm) any automatic coping mechanisms from jive won't necessarily transfer across and may even make things worse. It gets even more interesting when you start to confuse a WCS left-side pass, and a cross-body lead -- cause they sort of have the same motion and feel to them -- but not necessarily the same count.

The music's different -- strictly speaking you have to find the first beat in an eight count, rather than in a four count -- and some jazzy salsa stuff doesn't necessarily lend itself to easy counting. I'm just listening to a lot of salsa music off the dance floor now to start to train my ears

SpinDr.

P.S. The good news is that your floorcraft should carry across -- although my "radar" tends to have a lot of "paranoid false positives" on the salsa floor, 'cause I'm used to jivers taking relatively large steps and occupying large amounts of space. Even better news -- there's lots of interesting spins and stuff for the guys -- how often do guys get to "shine" when dancing MJ -- I understand the argument about being a frame for a picture, but even a frame looks better with a coat of paint

Oh and I now have a nice lot of really interesting jive moves now -- although I need to acclimatise some of the followers to deal with some of them.

[JamesGeary]

It's probably a little better to learn salsa before jive, than the other way around, just because you'll be more aware of your feet.

Women seem to swap each way almost without having to learn anything. Particularly from salsa to jive. For guys it means learning a lot though either way.

You have to leave all your habits and reflexes at the door when swapping. I also found that my 'fix a bad situation' reflexes just messed things up more.

[David Bailey]

Could be worse. I'm still reeling from this bachata (that's the right spelling!) class last night, made me feel like a total beginner...

It's a humbling experience, getting pretty much everything wrong. Hopefully I'm a nicer person now

BTW, here's something I found that I thought rather amusing, on the history-of-salsa theme:

"History of Salsa version 152
---------------------------
Salsa was invented by Hank Marvin and Una Stubbs on the set of Summer Holiday. It was first exploited in a Shake and Vac commercial in the 1970's which was subsequently seen by visiting delegates of an Icelandic trading mission. It became their national dance soon after and featured in their Eurovision song contest entry in 1982. Following that exposure it took only 13 years for the craze to sweep scout huts and awkwardly-located nightclubs in the back streets of nearly eleven towns on most Tuesdays in February."

So, there you go - thanks to http://www.and123.co.uk/History.htm

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Maybe it would have been easier to have learned Salsa then do Jive ?

That's what several guys here are doing as there is a thriving salsa scene but MJ is just starting. Problems I have found is that the lead isn't always too good, (does the footwork in salsa mean guys rely on a women being a certain place so they don't lead as much? Or could just be the way it is taught.) and musicality isn't great. The main salsa beat is quite strong and the footwork follows the beat (I'm not going to start into dancing On1 or On2 here!) wheras with MJ the music is a lot more varied and there are more breaks and opportunities to do things. I find when I am leaning salsa its the musicality of the leads that I find most frustrating. So doing MJ first would maybe make you better able to handle the salsa music once you have mastered the footwork and basics.

I was a beginner at both at exactly the same time for about 6 months - but I preferred MJ - I think it was the music that did it!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lynn

(does the footwork in salsa mean guys rely on a women being a certain place so they don't lead as much?

Salsa leads are different, for example for a standard turn there's a pre-signal when the lady goes back, which took me a while to get the hang of.

But yes, the whole lead/follow thing isn't so strong in salsa, I'd agree; there are a lot of "expected" moves and over-anticipation (or back-following). Here's an old discussion about this area - it's been a problem for years.

Originally Posted by Lynn

The main salsa beat is quite strong and the footwork follows the beat ... wheras with MJ the music is a lot more varied and there are more breaks and opportunities to do things. I find when I am leaning salsa its the musicality of the leads that I find most frustrating. So doing MJ first would maybe make you better able to handle the salsa music once you have mastered the footwork and basics.

Excellent points, IMO. MJ allows you to develop breaks and pauses well, that's the nature of it. But often, you try to do that in salsa (occasionally even salsa has breaks), and your partner just, well, looks at you in a funny way. Or, that could be just me...

I think there's no clear pros / cons either way - but I'd say doing both styles will help you improve in different ways with both dances.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Lynn

does the footwork in salsa mean guys rely on a women being a certain place so they don't lead as much?

I don't know the exact answer, but I do know that in Salsa you know which foot the lady's weight is on any given beat, so that must make a difference to the leading.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I don't know the exact answer, but I do know that in Salsa you know which foot the lady's weight is on any given beat, so that must make a difference to the leading.

I had a little think about this last night, and I think MJ followers are better at following. I think this may be because leads in MJ are more immediate.

As a follower in MJ, you don't really get much warning if, say, you're going to be taken into a return or a sway - you have to react and follow the move that's being lead, as part of the move itself. As a follower in salsa, I think you typically get more warning of what's coming up.

Also, of course, there's much less variety of moves in salsa, and there's naturally more less-than-superb salsa teachers than in MJ in my experience ...

So, yep, "leaving jive at the door" is pretty dumb advice when you think about it. Maybe "leave your timing and footwork at the door" is better

[JoC]

I've just been to my first 'proper' salsa beginners class this evening. I wondered if I would have many ingrained ceroc habits that might make things tricky but with the exception of doing a cha-cha (I was leading) instead of an...open step I think (?) which the teacher spotted and corrected immediately it seemed pretty easy (I acknowledge this is only week 1 mind you!). I think having been cerocing for 10 months (ok maybe my habits aren't as ingrained as some people's might be) was definitely a huge help, as was listening to a salsa CD regularly and dancing to it at home since Christmas...

Just thought I'd share. My verdict, for many people it's going to be easier picking up a new dance style if you've already got knowledge of another, not sure if it matters which because of the transferrable principles, provided there are some.

Have entered the multi-dance zone... how long does this phase last or is perpetual? Can I expect to find myself enrolling in ballet classes in 6 months time? Really don't think I'd be able to carry off the gear

[Andreas]

Good move Jo

As your teacher pointed out, in Salsa you are dancing TOWARDS your partner, in Jive in an angle to him a lot of the time. I too find this the most significant habit the Jivers have when they switch to Salsa. But it is a habit that can be broken with the result that even your Jive will improve just by that one change

[robd]

Originally Posted by Andreas

As your teacher pointed out, in Salsa you are dancing TOWARDS your partner, in Jive in an angle to him a lot of the time. I too find this the most significant habit the Jivers have when they switch to Salsa. But it is a habit that can be broken with the result that even your Jive will improve just by that one change

True. I get frustrated that many returns I lead see my partner moving from 12 o clock (in relation to me) to somewhere between 9 and 10 o clock. This is particularly frustrating when trying to secure a suitable space for a lap-sit as we end up moving out of line and the space is lost. Short of putting my RH out to form a barrier that the lady cannot move past I am not sure how else I rectify this.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JoC

Have entered the multi-dance zone... how long does this phase last or is perpetual? Can I expect to find myself enrolling in ballet classes in 6 months time? Really don't think I'd be able to carry off the gear

Probably perpetual - esp as MJ is such a good dance to bring things from other dance styles into IMO. I'm considering doing a bit of basic ballet!

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by robd

Short of putting my RH out to form a barrier that the lady cannot move past I am not sure how else I rectify this.

You move If you can't get your lady where you want her you simply make up for the remaining gap/angle ....

[dance cat]

Originally Posted by JoC

Have entered the multi-dance zone... how long does this phase last or is perpetual? Can I expect to find myself enrolling in ballet classes in 6 months time? Really don't think I'd be able to carry off the gear

I went through this a year ago and went to Salsa. I really enjoyed it and found MJ a great help in recognising moves. My Salsa teacher said that my previous dance experience helped with following and I found that I could recognise many of the moves in free style. I think it must be a lot harder for men to transfer because of the footwork and difference in lead (though I accept I could be very wrong here). The only reason I don't still go is because no one has invented a 48 hr day.

[Gav]

Review of SalsaJester - Dartford Acacia Ballroom.

For anyone who's seen my AT posts, you'