Argentinian Tango input into MJ?

[David Bailey]

OK, I know this thread will probably have to include the J-word, but there are hopefully enough of us doing / with experience of Argentinian Tango to make it varied.

From my massive 3 lessons' experience of Argentinian Tango, I can't really see much fusion of moves - ochos and possibly ganchos apart, which could basically be imported almost wholesale as simple move sequences - from AT to MJ. Most of the time, AT "Moves" are very straighforward, it's the execution, timing and style that are difficult.

However, for me, one interesting area of AT is the leading / following "connection" and "leading with the chest" thing - I can definitely feel the use of that, I'm already seeing how much of MJ involves yanking people around, and how little involves invitation.

Another area of interest to me is posture and style - the longer I've done MJ, the less I've moved about, and the less I've been on the balls of my feet whilst dancing. And AT seems to be an extension of this, with the teachers always saying "it's just walking". So I can see areas of development for me as a dancer there.

Anybody else got some experiences of how AT has helped develop their dancing in other areas?

[Franck]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

However, for me, one interesting area of AT is the leading / following "connection" and "leading with the chest" thing - I can definitely feel the use of that, I'm already seeing how much of MJ involves yanking people around, and how little involves invitation.

Yes, I would agree with that too!
The connection, and not using your arms so much was very inspiring.

Another huge revelation, was an awareness of the importance of balance / weight-distribution. In Tango, you are so close to your partner that you can't see where her feet are in relation to yours, so you have to A- Feel it and B- control her balance / weight distribution much more.
This was one of the areas I asked Stefano and Alexandra (from Tango in Action) to develop when they came over in June at the Beach Ballroom and they were very good at making it accessible to MJ dancers.

Many of the techniques I learnt have since inspired me to dance differently, and the workshops I taught at the BFG (the fingertip leading, and the controlling the frame, ones in particular) used many Argentine Tango techniques. For example, transferring your own weight to your right foot before stepping on the left, so that your partner either sees or feels it and is able to match the weight transfer and will step on her right (either forward or backward depending on the lead / connection).

This worked very well, and really made many people aware that a lot can be communicated without any force or contact provided you have connection and awareness!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Franck

In Tango, you are so close to your partner that you can't see where her feet are in relation to yours, so you have to A- Feel it and B- control her balance / weight distribution much more.

I'm still in beginnersville in AT, but I know what you mean.

Although that's not unique to tango - salsa does something very similar, that forces followers to feel the beat and follow the music rather than your partner.

[Franck]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Although that's not unique to tango - salsa does something very similar, that forces followers to feel the beat and follow the music rather than your partner.

Oh, no, that's not what I was referring to. I'm a fierce proponent of lead & follow first!
Followers should follow the man, and maintain (or not mess with) the connection.
If I understand what you're referring to, in Salsa and Tango, the followers is able to interpret the music independently of the lead, and add many style points and feet movements. Which is great and can look incredible, provided that the styling / musicality is added without breaking the connection (excepting shines of course, where the (physical) connection is interrupted).
We did a little bit of that in the footwork workshop, and in the fingertip leading, trying to isolate body movement from the hand connection (we were jumping like kangaroos at the time)...

What I was referring to was (for starters) an awareness of which foot your partner is balanced on, so that you can step with her (or indeed mirror / parallel her footwork). In tango, if you forget to transfer your partner's weight to the correct foot, you'll end up kicking her and won't get many dances. In MJ, we get away with it as we are much further apart, can see each other's feet, and rarely have to match footwork.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Franck

Oh, no, that's not what I was referring to. I'm a fierce proponent of lead & follow first!
Followers should follow the man, and maintain (or not mess with) the connection.

Sorry, that's not what I meant - I meant it more simply in that footwork in salsa is pretty much optional, but the rhythm is mandatory - and dancing close in almost forces the followers to listen to the beat and move to the rhythm, rather than mechanically following the man's timing and steps.

Originally Posted by Franck

What I was referring to was (for starters) an awareness of which foot your partner is balanced on, so that you can step with her (or indeed mirror / parallel her footwork). In tango, if you forget to transfer your partner's weight to the correct foot, you'll end up kicking her and won't get many dances.

Yes, I've seen that already - although it's as often the follower not paying attention as the leader not leading. Admittedly I could be deluding myself here that I'm providing a competent lead...

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

<<snip>>
However, for me, one interesting area of AT is the leading / following "connection" and "leading with the chest" thing - I can definitely feel the use of that, I'm already seeing how much of MJ involves yanking people around, and how little involves invitation.
<<snip>>

Originally Posted by Franck

{Excellent stuff - will repay thought}

Three things that are prominent for me currently in my exposure to Tango (a.k.a Argentinean Tango)

Frame
Left arm "Compression balance"
Chest lead

Frame - the idea that an ellipse shape (OK, unachievable ideal) should be maintained between the torsoes and arms of the dancers. The arms are at the "pointy" ends of the ellipse. I think in a close embrace the ellipse is smaller and "flatter" but the concept of this shape is maintained. As the alignment between the dancers changes the leader's hand slides "in the ellipse" around the follower's back. I don't know if this has an equivalent in other dances. This approach maintains a constant connection between the dancers that Martin Harper asked about elsewhere but probably does not translate to MJ.

"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force". This helps transmit intention from the leader without an explicit "push" from the man. The follower's right hand should aim to remain in the "plane" between the dancers' torsoes. If the follower's right arm "collapses" back this makes a lead difficult and ugly. I have been told about this "springiness" between the partners' arms in some MJ lessons.

Chest lead - this replaces the MJ pushes and signals. I performed an exercise (that I might have described before) with the sainted Pamela yesterday. We just walked, backwards, forwards and sideways at an "open embrace distance". All she had to do was follow and attempt to keep her torso "in the plane" of mine. A good exercise to emphasise clear lead and follow. The strange thing is, I found it a most intimate exercise because, although there was no physical contact I had to pay attention to my partner and relate to her. Most unsettling for a dancer who normally inspects the condition of the floor or the paintwork on the ceiling as he dances.

Clive

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I'm still in beginnersville in AT, but I know what you mean.

Although that's not unique to tango - salsa does something very similar, that forces followers to feel the beat and follow the music rather than your partner.

I’m also very much a beginner at TA

We taught as beginners - the followers must do just that

FOLLOW

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

..... I found it a most intimate exercise because, although there was no physical contact I had to pay attention to my partner and relate to her. ....Clive

As my teacher says “you lead with the heart”

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force".

How does this jive with the idea of using a very "light" lead?

Originally Posted by Clive Long

The strange thing is, I found it a most intimate exercise because, although there was no physical contact I had to pay attention to my partner and relate to her.

I had very much the same feeling when this exercise was first introduced to me at Sultans of Swing. The cumulative effect of doing this for just 15-30 minutes was... unsettling, and kinda inspiring. Some day I went to get that feeling in normal dancing.
It also means that I have a legit excuse for staring at my partner's "heart".

[Franck]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

How does this jive with the idea of using a very "light" lead?

Perfectly as it happens. As the Follower is supposed to match the Leaders' pressure, it's up to the Leader to apply a "light" pressure / lead and the Follower will match that.

In the Lead & Follow basics workshop on Saturday, we spent a lot of time differentiating between 'inner' and 'outer' connection. The former being to do with (mostly follower's) posture and balance, so that any momentum from one part of your body translates in a virtually instant matched momentum from the rest of your body (i.e. your body follows the motion of your hand without delay). The latter was the connection with your partner, i.e. matching any point of contact (be it compression or leverage) and isolating the connection from any extraneous style footwork or body movement you add to the dance.

Once, as a follower, you have a good inner connection, the leader can have a very light touch (or indeed no touch at all if using visual connection) and still lead incredibly complex patterns with no hesitation.

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force".

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

How does this jive with the idea of using a very "light" lead?

Yep, yep. Good point.

Let me try this ...

In MJ if your partner's "hand/arm tone" is too hard/rigid it feels like you are wrestling with a 600lb gorilla (and I have had a few of those) and makes you push harder to get the gorilla moving

In MJ if your partner's "hand/arm tone" is too soft/flaccid it feels most unpleasant and makes you push harder to get any reaction to the lead. One feels one is wrestling with jelly rather than the gorilla.

In MJ I like the idea of my partner's arms/hands providing a light spring response. So a gentle push will produce a slight movement but her hand will come back to "neutral". A stronger push - but still light in comparison to the wrestling described above - will initiate a move by one's partner - hopefully somewhat approximating the response one hoped for.

In Tango, as I understand, the emphasis is more on maintaining the frame, so if you push harder she will push back. There may be a role for push and pull in Tango but I'm getting the message it is frowned upon. Others with more experience of Tango care to comment?

CRL

[Franck]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

In Tango, as I understand, the emphasis is more on maintaining the frame, so if you push harder she will push back. There may be a role for push and pull in Tango but I'm getting the message it is frowned upon. Others with more experience of Tango care to comment?

From my (limited) understanding of Tango, there is no 'Push', instead, the connection is so complete that any momentum is imparted by the body moving (i.e. the man shifting his weight, or stepping).

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by Franck

From my (limited) understanding of Tango, there is no 'Push',

My understanding too.

In my first post I wrote

Originally Posted by Me

"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force". This helps transmit intention from the leader without an explicit "push" from the man.

Originally Posted by Franck

instead, the connection is so complete that any momentum is imparted by the body moving (i.e. the man shifting his weight, or stepping).

Summarises well what I have been told

CRL

[JonD]

What a great thread!
As you may have worked out, I'm an AT junkie. I've been dancing it for about 3 1/2 years although I've done nowhere near as much as I'd like - some huge gaps in there.

I think AT has made a significant difference to the way I dance Jive. I'd break it down into four areas.

Connection. Tango can generate a very intense connection but I think I've learnt to modulate that to suit my partner and this has carried over into Jive. I've always had a habit of looking at my partner when I'm dancing and that can make some people uncomfortable. (No, not a scary stare, I promise). Dancing Tango in close embrace means that you can't see your partner, you can only feel them and you become much more sensitive to their movement and the tension in their body and frame. That seems to have carried over into Jive and I no longer rely so much on eye contact to maintain a connection. That sounds a bit weird, but I find I'm better at sensing the level of connection at which my partner becomes uncomfortable. Best of all is when there are no limits!

Lead/Follow. The lead in AT demands that you are accurate in your body positioning and I think this makes a huge difference. You can communicate so much by how you position yourself. It also teaches you to disassociate your upper and lower body so you are quite comfortable having your chest facing one direction and your hips another which kind of helps in circular walks and the like. I try to lead with one finger in Jive and I think that using my "presence" helps that considerably.

Followers learn to be "present". To maintain that tension that means, if you have a fingertip against the small of their back and gently take the finger away, they'll walk backwards to retain the connection. That's incredibly helpful in Jive.

Another, rather more esoteric thing that I've learnt is "leading by intention" - if you think it then it will happen. Once you are reasonably competent leading from your centre (or, as Philsmove says, your heart) then try leading without any contact at all. It is, as Clive says, a very intense connection and you'll find that just by thinking where you want your partner to go they'll be there. Sadly, it doesn't work all the time! I first experienced it at a "Tango and Tai Chi" workshop. A good example of the crossover to Jive is being able to lead a Columbian Walk without any physical contact.

Originally Posted by Frank

Another huge revelation, was an awareness of the importance of balance / weight-distribution. In Tango, you are so close to your partner that you can't see where her feet are in relation to yours, so you have to A- Feel it and B- control her balance / weight distribution much more.

Doesn't that make a huge difference? If you can put your partner on her left foot before turning her out in a First Move you'll get an accurate pivot - if you put her on her right foot you can do all sorts of other things!

Quality of Movement. This is what I'm trying to work on at the moment. In Jive we move so fast that we often don't pay close attention to our balance or the way we get from one foot to the other. Tango, because it can be danced so much slower, gives you the opportunity to really think about the way you are moving. Balance, posture, timing, accuracy, being grounded: just the way you move. Tango encourages me to think of these things and try different ways of achieving them. I then try and bring the lessons into my Jive, no matter that I'm moving more quickly. It's one of the huge differences between the pros and the celebrities on SCD - just the way they move.

Musicality. I find Tango music has many more "layers" than a lot of the stuff I dance Jive to. You can dance to the rhythm or the melody or a particular instrument, it's all OK. You learn to use pauses - not breaks where you stop but pauses where you are still dancing just not moving: you intensify the connection with your partner as the music builds and then just as the connection threatens to overwhelm you, you release it into a step just as the music reaches a crescendo. That sort of thing! (Phew!). At the other end of the scale there are fast secadas, giros, dramatic boleos with which you can play. If you want to use the toys you've got to listen to the music! Tango has made me much more confident about being "brave" in my musical interpretation in Jive although I'm still no good at creating really dramatic moments. (By the way, if I try fast sacadas then I'm quite likely to kick my partner's ankles off).

Sorry, this has turned into something of an essay!

[RogerR]

The trouble seems to be more that MJ followers dont/won't dance that close.

[Rebecca]

Originally Posted by philsmove

I’m also very much a beginner at TA

We taught as beginners - the followers must do just that

FOLLOW

I like the idea promoted in the (two) tango classes I've had the pleasure of attending that the follower is INVITED into a space.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by RogerR

The trouble seems to be more that MJ followers dont/won't dance that close.

AT doesn't have to be danced close in - the techniques of leading, following etc. work just as fine with any hold, or none at all.

It's only since seeing a real connection that I realised how much I as a lead have been yanking people around all these years

So I think the problem is that most MJ leaders don't lead "correctly" and most MJ followers don't follow "correctly" - for some value of correct, at least.