Salsa

[Lynn]

Thought it would be good to have a seperate thread from the 'teaching of lead and follow' in salsa as some of us were talking about more general salsa experiences.

I've decided I'm going to go along to a salsa Christmas party in Dec. Its in a nice venue (a bar at the Waterfront Hall with big floor to ceiling windows looking out over the river), and I've heard its not too smoky. Aside from a few workshops, I haven't done any salsa lessons for almost 2 years, so am going to start going for the next few weeks to try to get to the point where I can at least pass myself at the Christmas Ball. Its going to be interesting to see if I am any better at it (wasn't very good before ) than when I last tried. (Ie if my dancing experience in MJ has any effect.)

Jivecat, you still going to classes? How are they going?

Ducasi - I'm following your blog on this. Sounds like you are covering a lot more by week three than someone starting a beginners class would here.

[ducasi]

Hi Lynn and other Salseros...

I've just written up my fourth week of Salsa (which is actually the fifth class in the series – I missed the first.)

There's what we'd call a "Tea Dance" for Glasgow's salseros on Sunday afternoon, but for the reasons I gave in my blog, I don't think I'll be going along to it.

I am so frustrated by the way girls can go along to these events and have lots of great dances long before guys can. It's just not fair!

Something I've noticed though is that there seem to be a lot more free salsa events than for MJ. I guess it's because they tend to be held in small, (sometimes crowded) bars and the bar's owner is keen to be associated with trendy salsa dancing. (Perhaps salsa dancers also tend to drink more than MJ dancers?)

Anyway, comments on my blog posting are, as always, very welcome.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by ducasi

I am so frustrated by the way girls can go along to these events and have lots of great dances long before guys can. It's just not fair!

If only! From chatting to some of the other co-novices it seems that for leaders it's at least 6 months before they could hope to participate in freestyles without looking like a complete prat. I'm hoping it's a bit less for followers. I haven't been to a party night yet, I'm steeling myself for an evening spent as a wallflower, gritting my teeth with frustration!

I'm still uneasy about the dance etiquette. If I ask guys to dance, I'm vaguely worried about disapproving glances from "senior" salseras who are standing at the sides. There may be a pecking order I don't know about. But usually, I just think "What the hell..., go for it."

I plucked up the courage last week to ask an obviously experienced guy for a dance. He looked at me closely and said "You really want to learn, don't you?" Can't imagine ever getting that response in MJ. But at least he didn't think I was hitting on him.

(Perhaps salsa dancers also tend to drink more than MJ dancers?)

They certainly do. I think the guys need it to break down the terror and inhibition! And the teachers smoke like chimneys.

I've signed up for Course 2 and there's still a big emphasis on lead/follow, though we've now covered the Dile que no and the Dile que si, though I can't remember which is which!

Further thoughts - despite being obviously totally macho & heterosexual etc, the Dominican merengue teacher has no inhibitions about grabbing the nearest male so that he can demonstrate the ladies' steps, and it's all treated as a good laugh. I can't imagine that going down well at a Ceroc class.

There's a disproportionate number of people from Asian backgrounds in the class - maybe up to a third. I know this is Leicester, but there's probably only 5% max at the Ceroc nights. Is there any cultural reason for why salsa might have greater appeal?

Does anyone know of a good, basic, instruction video/DVD for Cuban style salsa? One of the guys was complaining that he couldn't find one anywhere and the teacher, strangely, was not being very helpful! So I said I'd ask the fount of all dancing knowledge.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by jivecat

I'm still uneasy about the dance etiquette. If I ask guys to dance, I'm vaguely worried about disapproving glances from "senior" salseras who are standing at the sides. There may be a pecking order I don't know about. But usually, I just think "What the hell..., go for it."

I think coming from MJ, some followers adapt very well and have the confidence to ask for a dance, more than some salseras who've only experienced the more macho "the man does the asking" culture which seems to be prevalent in salsa. For example, I almost never get asked to dance salsa by an unknown woman in salsa, although it'd be nice if I were...

Re: smoking / drinking:

Originally Posted by jivecat

They certainly do. I think the guys need it to break down the terror and inhibition! And the teachers smoke like chimneys.

Again, it's a cultural thing, along with the fact that most salsa (freestyle) venues are in pubs or clubs rather than the "big hall" MJ model.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I've signed up for Course 2 and there's still a big emphasis on lead/follow, though we've now covered the Dile que no and the Dile que si, though I can't remember which is which!

From what you and Ducasi are saying, there's a lot of emphasis on the Spanish names of moves in the classes - is that common generally? None of the classes I've been to recently have done that...

Originally Posted by jivecat

Further thoughts - despite being obviously totally macho & heterosexual etc, the Dominican merengue teacher has no inhibitions about grabbing the nearest male so that he can demonstrate the ladies' steps, and it's all treated as a good laugh. I can't imagine that going down well at a Ceroc class.

Hmmm, I doubt that's a "macho" thing, I think it's more that male Ceroc teachers trust their demonstrators to show the ladies' steps themselves, rather than take over the whole show. I went to a salsa class a few months ago with a Ceroc teacher, and she was distinctly unimpressed with the teacher doing this; she thought it was just showing off, and not trusting his demonstrator.

Originally Posted by jivecat

Does anyone know of a good, basic, instruction video/DVD for Cuban style salsa? One of the guys was complaining that he couldn't find one anywhere and the teacher, strangely, was not being very helpful! So I said I'd ask the fount of all dancing knowledge.

No, sorry.

I can definitely recommend not ever getting any teaching videos done by Elder Sanchez, however, as they're truly abysmal.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by jivecat

If only! From chatting to some of the other co-novices it seems that for leaders it's at least 6 months before they could hope to participate in freestyles without looking like a complete prat. I'm hoping it's a bit less for followers.

A Ceroc dancer I know, after, I think, only one or two classes went to a Salsa party and apparently had a fantastic time. That may have had something to do with the "friendly faces" there that she knew from Ceroc.

I think before I go to any freestyles, I'll want to be sure there are similarly friendly faces I know there.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I plucked up the courage last week to ask an obviously experienced guy for a dance. He looked at me closely and said "You really want to learn, don't you?" Can't imagine ever getting that response in MJ. But at least he didn't think I was hitting on him.

That at a class night? I guess if I asked the female demo/taxi after class for a dance, I'd probably get a similar reaction – especially as no-one else would be up dancing at the time.

Originally Posted by jivecat

They certainly do. I think the guys need it to break down the terror and inhibition! And the teachers smoke like chimneys.

I had plenty of terror and inhibition when I started Ceroc, but quite rightly I figured that drinking wasn't going to help me remember the moves, and would only make things worse. Don't know what it's going to be like in Salsa, but maybe it also depends what other people are doing...

My teacher has just given up smoking! She said though that she thinks it was a bad time to do it as she's off at a Salsa weekender in Wales this weekend where she's teaching!

Originally Posted by jivecat

I've signed up for Course 2 and there's still a big emphasis on lead/follow, though we've now covered the Dile que no and the Dile que si, though I can't remember which is which!

What? There's a Dile que si?? Maybe this will help you remember... the dile que no is the one I do know, and the dile que si is the one I don't.

Originally Posted by jivecat

There's a disproportionate number of people from Asian backgrounds in the class - maybe up to a third. I know this is Leicester, but there's probably only 5% max at the Ceroc nights. Is there any cultural reason for why salsa might have greater appeal?

That's interesting, as I guess it's a wee bit similar here. I haven't seen many Asians at Ceroc, but there has been at least two in my Salsa class – the two that (sometimes) go with me.

One is the friend that I managed to get to go by embarrassing her into it. She had talked about doing Salsa for years, but when I said I would go, she had to agree to come along so that I wouldn't be able to slag her about it. (The other is her sister.)

Although she had seen Ceroc, she said didn't like it, though she hasn't yet given me a coherent reason why she doesn't like Ceroc, but does like Salsa. She's said she doesn't like Ceroc music, but she's very much into dance music. She said she doesn't like the closeness of Ceroc, but Salsa is even closer.

The only thing that might make sense is that she thinks that Salsa is sexier, but if she doesn't like close moves, how is she going experience this sexiness?

For various reasons she and her sister have actually had to miss the last three weeks (they've only done the first two weeks) and I don't think they'll bother coming back for the last three.

Originally Posted by jivecat

Does anyone know of a good, basic, instruction video/DVD for Cuban style salsa?

Cheers!

[Lynn]

I didn't make it along to salsa last Tues (what would have been my first salsa class in about 1 1/2 years, not counting a couple of workshops I did when Susanna Montero was over in April). But I am going this Tues, definitely.

The past year or so my only salsa experiences are party nights, they are often for charity and I go along to support the organisers, or to see friends. And I have never, ever enjoyed a single one for the dancing. I like seeing friends, I get up for dances with friends, I go put with every intention of having a good evening. But I tend to come away thinking 'I'm never doing salsa again', then time passes and I have friends who go and I go along again... Like now.

With MJ, even if I don't know that many people, even if my dancing is 'off form' I still enjoy myself. Any suggestions as to why there is this difference would be good as maybe I could sort out whatever it is and actually enjoy a salsa night!

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Re: smoking / drinking:

Again, it's a cultural thing, along with the fact that most salsa (freestyle) venues are in pubs or clubs rather than the "big hall" MJ model.

OK, this is one of the things that puts me off, I'm aware of that. Pubs/clubs mean small dance floors, greater intensity of smoke, and floors with alcohol spills which ruin dance shoes. The Christmas event I am planning on going on is in a 'bar' area but its at a nice venue, I heard it wasn't too smoky last year and the floor should be clean.

I'll post again after Tues, I'm going to an improvers class first, then on to a club. There will be several male salsa dancing friends (some of whom I have introduced to partner dancing in the first place) so I know I will get a few dances. I'll see if I enjoy it...

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by ducasi

Hi Lynn and other Salseros...

I've just written up my fourth week of Salsa (which is actually the fifth class in the series – I missed the first.)

Thanks for the link!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by ducasi

Although she had seen Ceroc, she said didn't like it, though she hasn't yet given me a coherent reason why she doesn't like Ceroc, but does like Salsa. She's said she doesn't like Ceroc music, but she's very much into dance music. She said she doesn't like the closeness of Ceroc, but Salsa is even closer.

That does seem a little inconsistent... But, some people just don't like the atmosphere, and that's all there is to it. Same applies to salsa of course (more so, probably).

I think a lot of this "preference" is to do with self-image, and the image of particular dances - if you think of yourself as a trendy funky clubber, and MJ as an old fogies dance, then you may want to try salsa because you think it fits your own view of yourself.

Of course, you then realise that salsa is more difficult to learn at the start than MJ, and you don't come back...

Originally Posted by ducasi

The only thing that might make sense is that she thinks that Salsa is sexier, but if she doesn't like close moves, how is she going experience this sexiness?

Salsa isn't sexier than MJ - no dance is inherently sexier than any other, it's the way you do it that makes it sexy. Or so I'm told.

Originally Posted by ducasi

For various reasons she and her sister have actually had to miss the last three weeks (they've only done the first two weeks) and I don't think they'll bother coming back for the last three.

Mmm - basically, it sounds like they're just not really interested in learning to dance.

[Anna]

The thing I have found with Salsa, is that everyone is so elitist and egotistical that if you want to do even half-okay, you have to be like a breath of fresh air. Don't care what anyone thinks. Don't let the hotshots psych you out. If you ask them to dance, the worst they can say is no and believe it or not, a lot of "experienced" male salsa dancers (and I have heard Richard Natividad of Latin Dance Australia and Nestor from Modus Vivendi both say this)..dancing with beginner women is often the most enjoyable!!!

And I know it works cos that's how I "learnt" Salsa pretty much, I knew the basics but had forgotten them all til I started going to the lain clubs around June this year. - From having the courage to ask the "Pro's" to dance (over and over and over and over.. ), I'm now 'advanced' salsa and I begin teaching for latin rhythm dance studio starting in Dec. I know that sounds like one of those cheesy commercials on TV like "buy the flab-blaster and you'll lose 20kg in 2 weeks!" but its actually true. That whole dancing with people better than you thing is definitely worth it.

And I keep getting the feeling I'm hugely off topic....

[Anna]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Salsa isn't sexier than MJ - no dance is inherently sexier than any other, it's the way you do it that makes it sexy. Or so I'm told.

Lies even basic Salsa is HUGELY sexier than MJ.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

From what you and Ducasi are saying, there's a lot of emphasis on the Spanish names of moves in the classes - is that common generally? None of the classes I've been to recently have done that...

I'd quite like them to teach the whole class in Spanish, it'd kill two birds with one stone. I could hone my Dominican accent....

Hmmm, I doubt that's a "macho" thing, I think it's more that male Ceroc teachers trust their demonstrators to show the ladies' steps themselves, rather than take over the whole show. I went to a salsa class a few months ago with a Ceroc teacher, and she was distinctly unimpressed with the teacher doing this; she thought it was just showing off, and not trusting his demonstrator.

He doesn't have a demonstrator, the ladies rotate and he demos using whatever lady comes to hand at the time - if he thinks the ladies' bit is tricky that's when he demos himself.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Anna

That whole dancing with people better than you thing is definitely worth it.

And I keep getting the feeling I'm hugely off topic....

We'll be back on another topic dear to the forumites' hearts if were not careful! Good post & advice. I left before the end of the freestyle last night because I can't stand that bit after the class when the favoured ones get up and dance with the teacher/ experienced dancers and the rest lean against the walls looking on. I think I need to cultivate an attitude of sheer, single-minded, shameless selfishness when it comes to gettting dances, otherwise I'm going to get fed-up with the wallflower stage.
Thinking back, the first year of Ceroc was pretty hellish and there were quite a few evenings when I thought "I'm never going back there!"

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Anna

The thing I have found with Salsa, is that everyone is so elitist and egotistical that if you want to do even half-okay, you have to be like a breath of fresh air. Don't care what anyone thinks. Don't let the hotshots psych you out.

Exactly - the salsa scene is much more snobby (at least in the UK) than the MJ scene, that's the main reason I prefer MJ.

Originally Posted by jivecat

He doesn't have a demonstrator, the ladies rotate and he demos using whatever lady comes to hand at the time - if he thinks the ladies' bit is tricky that's when he demos himself.

Blimey. Are there any other salsa classes near you? It sounds like your one is, bluntly, crap.

No demo to show you the steps, no working with the room, masty atmosphere...

Originally Posted by Anna

Lies even basic Salsa is HUGELY sexier than MJ.

It's subjective, but I think you'll find Andreas has a different opinion.

Admittedly, I also used to think that, but now I think that once you get to a certain level, it almost doesn't matter what you dance. Although it's difficult for me to imagine line-dancing being sexy...

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Blimey. Are there any other salsa classes near you? It sounds like your one is, bluntly, crap.

No demo to show you the steps, no working with the room, masty atmosphere...

I've tried various salsa classes over the years, and this is the best so far. Because -

1. It's well-organised and managed in terms of dealing with the extra ladies & rotation of partners.
2. It's well-thought out in terms of progression with one step leading on to the next, and good foundations being established.
3.The teacher is good at showing the basics with a firm but relaxed teaching style.
4.The classes are structured well with a good balance of footwork, partner work, revision of old material and introduction of new material.
5.There's a clear emphasis on lead and follow and it is explained carefully.
6.All the ladies get a chance to be led by the teacher during the course of a leson.

This is the only class where I feel that I've got a good chance of learning as long as I stick with it, though admittedly there is a lot of transfer of knowledge over from Ceroc which I didn't have before.

As for the not working with the room & hierarchical atmosphere - I thought that was par for the course. (Thinks, have I moaned about it that much? )

To compare with Ceroc it was at least a year before teacher danced with me, and I recall the Leicester venue seemed pretty cliquey and unfriendly at the time as new and unfamiliar places often do. I just stuck with it through gritted teeth because I really wanted to do it. The salsa punters are actually very friendly because the group is much smaller so there's time and space specifically for socialising.

So does your class have advantages over & above what I've just described?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by jivecat

So does your class have advantages over & above what I've just described?

My class does, yes. Coz I'm doing it, and I'm a lovely friendly person, just ask anyone

As for classes I learn at, hmmm, you may have a point - sorry, I jumped to conclusions based on some comment..

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Anna

Lies even basic Salsa is HUGELY sexier than MJ.

They must dance it a lot better there then! Seeing a bunch of people trying to wiggle their hips and look sexy is not! I think salsa has a much higher 'looking very stupid while you learn it' factor in the early stages than MJ. That's a comment based on observations last night at beginner (saw the end) and the improvers class after not having been to salsa classes for over a year.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Exactly - the salsa scene is much more snobby (at least in the UK) than the MJ scene, that's the main reason I prefer MJ.

I have to say that I found the guys in the class last night all had a great attitude. I was too tired to go on to the club, I suppose the 'snobby' dancers wouldn't bother with the classes anyway.

OK - report on last night. A line up warm up, which was fine except for some heel, heel, toe, toe thing which I thought even the teacher looked daft doing. Teacher (with demo) in centre of circle, ladies rotated, scatter method. Although there were extra ladies it wasn't too bad.

Moves - no idea the names of most of it but I'll give it a go in case others do... CBL into copa - guy stops lady by R hand on her R shoulder - spins her AC 1 1/2 turns with hand on shoulder (lady bends knees to get under the guys arm), then a CBL variation where guy turns right round to end up facing opposite to lady with his hand behind his back, turns again, catches lady round tummy and walks her backwards then into a 'flick' ending turning the lady AC. He didn't show an ending so leads were either releasing for lady to spin AC and catch or wrap AC then unwrap or spin C. All seemed fairly straightforward but some guys were having problems with the CBL variation and I had problems with the flick move as he just said 'you all know that' and didn't teach it. I was standing out on the walk through for that bit so when we rotated I was dancing right through with a move I didn't know - fortunately I got a nice lead who showed me the move.

After the class there were 5 tracks for practice, as there were several friends there I danced to 4 of them.

The venue has a new floor since I was last there which is better and much faster, was able to spin in my trainers no problem - but there were wet patches and I slipped once and a partner did too. And I have been told that depending on what other events have been in the hall (its a Student's Union) sometimes when you stand on the floor in parts the beer comes up through the joins! Yeuch!

A few guys weren't dancing on the beat, but they maybe have only recently moved up to that level and are finding the moves and dancing on the beat too much to think about at once.

Worryingly, some guys couldn't lead very well, and many were ones who I recognised that were in this intermediate class 2 years ago when I was starting the beginners. And I also noticed that if they didn't lead a move well and I wasn't where I was supposed to be (because I was following their lead and not just walking through the move) they blamed me and said 'no you should go here'. As I was only back to classes after a long break, I didn't want to say 'well lead me to there then!' but if I continue I will try to point out that they need to make that clearer with their lead.

There was some mention of lead and follow (going back to the other thread) and there were guys there who were leading very well but I asked several 'would you lead this move in social dancing?' and they said no. Esp with the copa spin under thingy - the woman has to know the man wants her to turn under and bend her knees, there was no explanation of how the lead indicates this - even in the walk though I got thumped on the head with one lead. I don't think the hand on the shoulder is enough of a lead as (I think) leading from the shoulder is used in other moves that don't involve the woman ducking and spinning under the arm?

I didn't go on to the salsa club as a crowd of friends were going for coffee and meeting up with other friends, and by the time I was leaving there it was after 11pm and I was tired, and there is Camber this weekend. Maybe next time!