Swing, Jive or Salsa?

[Tessalicious]

I was reminded by Minnie's post about WCS teachers of something I noticed at a couple of smallish weekenders I've been on. This is that while most of these events offer a course of classes in both West Coast Swing and Lindy-hop, only the really big weekenders ever have a Salsa class, and then usually only one or two, and often by familiar teachers such as Viktor, and never for that matter any Ballroom Jive or R'n'R.

Since our beloved Ceroc is widely proclaimed as 'a salsa-jive fusion', why might it be the component dances are not being taught at these events? In my experience, if you have a Ceroc background, these dances are more possible to pick up in the course of a few lessons over a weekend than are the swing dances, and that what you learn in these is more easily used to advantage in dancing MJ itself. So given that one of the reasons behind the weekenders is to help people to improve their MJ dancing, it seems counterintuitive not to teach them.

I have a couple of possible theories, but am really interested to hear what others more in the know might have to contribute before I spout them.

[clevedonboy]

I've no input on the Salsa side of this. If it is badly under represented compared to Swing then this may be something that people should look at - i think variety is what weekenders should be about

WRT the "other half" of MJ. I'd pretty much say Lindy is THE way to learn it but really most of the swing variants use the same basic structure so perhaps the more generic "Swing Dance" would be a better way to describe early lessons. Swing dancing encourages good technique in body control, lead / follow & connection if nothing else and people can learn 6 count swing pretty quickly, so people can achieve quite a lot in just a few lessons.

Many Lindy shapes will be familiar to anyone who dances MJ, Turns, returns, change places, lady spin, catapult, basket, sway are all found in the original Lindy moves, so "all" you have to learn is that pesky moving your feet thing. Losing your inhibitions is probably the hardest thing.

WCS is very much a left field swing variant but it's brand recognition factor will make it a ready target for people attending weekenders.

[dancefiend]

I dance salsa, marangue and ceroc - I think there's more relationship between salsa and cha cha then it is to ceroc. For one thing the foot work - the guy moves with his left foot first whereas ceroc is the right foot.

You can also dance salsa to rock & roll music easier than you can dance ceroc to rock & roll.

I'm not sure why ceroc is called MJ, if jive consist of styles like Lindy Hop - they work on 6 counts - if I'm correct, whereas ceroc works on 4.

The closest proximity to ceroc is probably manangue - that works on 2 count where the stepping pattern is constant. The main difference is that marangue does not have the expansion & contraction of tension - but other than that it's quite similar.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by dancefiend

I dance salsa, marangue and ceroc - I think there's more relationship between salsa and cha cha then it is to ceroc. For one thing the foot work - the guy moves with his left foot first whereas ceroc is the right foot.

In Salsa, in the basic step I step back left. In Ceroc, in the step back, I step back left. But then there's more to the dance than which foot you start with.

Originally Posted by dancefiend

You can also dance salsa to rock & roll music easier than you can dance ceroc to rock & roll.

Even more . I guess it depends what you mean by "rock & roll", but to my mind, Salsa to rock & roll would just look all wrong. MJ is derived from the dance that went hand-in-hand with R&R, and in my experience works quite well with it.

Originally Posted by dancefiend

I'm not sure why ceroc is called MJ, if jive consist of styles like Lindy Hop - they work on 6 counts - if I'm correct, whereas ceroc works on 4.

I would say that Lindy Hop is a different dance than Jive. I don't know what counts Jive requires, but I don't think Ceroc works on 4, 6 or any number. Every move has a its own count and you don't need to start any move on any particular count.

Does anyone know how "2-step Jive" relates to this?

Originally Posted by dancefiend

The closest proximity to ceroc is probably manangue - that works on 2 count where the stepping pattern is constant. The main difference is that marangue does not have the expansion & contraction of tension - but other than that it's quite similar.

Merengue has moves that are similar to Ceroc, but I think the style and timing is very different.


On the more general question... I went to a weekender a wee while back that as well as teaching some MJ and WCS (or as I like to call it WCBS ), taught some Mambo, Cha Cha, Belly Dancing, and Salsa, plus a wee bit of Line Dancing.

I don't know if any of that has influenced my Ceroc, but I found them all (or at least the ones I went to) very interesting.

[Andreas]

For quite some time (and possibly even now) Ceroc in particular was always afraid of 'advertising' the other dance styles. Ceroc is a business and it takes a lot of confidence to promote a competition that may (or may not) lure some of your punters away.

Down-under Ceroc opens slowly up to providing 'access' to the other styles during major events.

However, you only want to have a small number of workshops of other styles in your event because at the end of the day the emphasis is on Jive or it'd not be a Jive event

[clevedonboy]

Originally Posted by ducasi

mostly

Don't think too deeply about what Jive is or your head will explode - we're talking about swing steps at the end of the day, have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Jive

The root is still Swing (Lindy)

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think Salsa differs from Ceroc in ways that the other dances mentioned dont:

The music is very different and inaccessible to people who's native culture includes Frank Sinatra style swing, modern pop and Hip Hop.

Not stepping on a beat (the four and the eight) in Salsa is very different from Ceroc and swing, where you add extra steps into the basic count (triple steps) rather than missing them out.

Cuban Salsa especially has a much closer feel than most people are comfortable with; Ceroc is more similar to Lindy I think in terms of your physical distance from your partner. Ditto WCS.

The biggest reason though I think is the difference in the music.

Not sure about Jive though.

[Jenni]

Originally Posted by dancefiend

I think there's more relationship between salsa and cha cha then it is to ceroc.

You'd probably be easier dancing Lindy or Jive to rock'n'roll music than Salsa or Ceroc - friends of mine are rock'n'rollers and while as a cerocer I can follow their lead they find it very difficult to follow ceroc cause they don't have specific moves as such - more emphasis on turns and spins and not much on a step back between moves

Originally Posted by ducasi

In Salsa, in the basic step I step back left.

Do u mean forward on the left?

Thinking about it going back/forward on the left as a leader seems to be quite common certainly in most ballroom dances and WCS.
Ladies generally move off with the right foot - though I wasn't really taught footwork when I started MJ I've found thru doing other dances that's now normally the foot I use.

Jenni

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Jenni

Do u mean forward on the left?

Dunno. In the "Guapea" move, which we have been taught as a basic move, it starts with the guy stepping back left, and the girl stepping back right for the 1,2,3. Then on the 5,6,7 I step forward on my right, and the girl on her left.

I suppose other moves involves stepping forward first, but no matter what direction, it's always my left first.

In Ceroc I step back left, and I expect the girl to step back right as that's what the lead is telling her to do. (In my few goes at following I was worried I'd be stepping back left, as that's what I'm used to doing as a lead, but when I'm being led backward through my right arm it seemed perfectly natural to step back with my right foot.)

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Tessalicious

Since our beloved Ceroc is widely proclaimed as 'a salsa-jive fusion', .....

I haven't heard it introduced from the stage in those terms for a little while now.

Originally Posted by Ducassi

In Ceroc, in the step back, I step back left.

Do you? Really? Is that the Scottish way?

Whether it's Ceroc Essentials, or the first step (back) of the First Move, I have always been taught to step back Right and I would find it very counterintuitive to do otherwise.

Originally Posted by dancefiend

You can also dance salsa to rock & roll music easier than you can dance ceroc to rock & roll.

I just don't know Salsa but find that hard to believe in view of the disparity in the music and the common origins of R & R and jive in its various forms. It has become a tradition (whether wise or not) at a local venue that, towards the end of the beginner class where the four moves are repeated twice to music, it is done a couple of times to music of R & R speed. That can be quite a challenge, but it is possible and indeed enjoyable, given the right partner.

The idea is to illustrate the use of smaller steps to faster music.

[TiggsTours]

Originally Posted by dancefiend

I'm not sure why ceroc is called MJ, if jive consist of styles like Lindy Hop - they work on 6 counts - if I'm correct, whereas ceroc works on 4.

6 & 8 beat for Lindy.

Ceroc really doesn't work on any beat! There are 6 beat moves, 8 beat, 4 beat, even 2 beat, 3 beat, 12 beat, 73 beat! Its all a bit all over the place on structure really!

I think the only reason that Ceroc was suddenly called a "Jive Salsa Fusion", was because, at the time that came in, Salsa was so popular, whereas now its done a bit of a turnaround! I think that Ceroc is a mixture of all sorts of things, Jive, Rock & Roll, Salsa, Lindy, all mixed together and spat out in a big blob!

Don't get me wrong, I love the way Ceroc is, I love the fact that its big mixture of everything, with very little structure, so you can make whatever you want out of it, but I think if you're serious about dancing as an art form, not just a way to have fun and keep fit, then you need to learn something else.

But I do think that Ceroc & MJ have the best people, the best social scene, and is definately the most fun, welcoming and friendly of all the dance forms!

[Tessalicious]

Hey peeps, thanks for replying, and some interesting comments.

I have to say first that part of my conspiracy theory was that which Andreas mentioned, of Ceroc not wanting to introduce its members to 'the competition'. I can understand that this is an issue, and that they might think that certain types of people would be more attracted to the meat-market-type social ethic of Salsa clubs. One thing I'm curious about is why this doesn't apply to, for example, WCS, which can be a very sexy dance but doesn't seem to have this kind of image (in this country, yet ).

I'm fascinated that you guys don't agree with the salsa part of the fusion statement. Ok, so the footwork is more precise, but the only real difference is that rather than stepping apart and then back in, the partners step in the same direction - in many of these new-fangled 'Ceroc essentials' warm-up sessions, the get-your-feet-moving footwork patterns are in salsa rhythm.

Not only that, but every time I go to a salsa class, I recognise at least one move as a basic or classic Ceroc move by another name - the pretzel, the basket, the octopus and the crucifix to name but a few. I agree that the timing of Ceroc is more similar to merengue, but the look of the dance is so different!

The only other thing I can think of is that the dances are actually too similar, so the average basic intermediate might get confused, whereas they don't think this is a problem with the more disparate swing dances?

Originally Posted by TiggsTours

But I do think that Ceroc & MJ have the best people, the best social scene, and is definately the most fun, welcoming and friendly of all the dance forms!

Couldn't agree more!

[David Bailey]

Re: ceroc being a salsa / jive fusion:

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I haven't heard it introduced from the stage in those terms for a little while now.

Well, that's what it says in the first sentence of the first page of the ceroc.com website

It's rubbish, of course - just a marketing ploy to add some "sexiness" to the dance. Apparently Latin is sexier than French, I don't know if Franck wants to comment on that?

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Whether it's Ceroc Essentials, or the first step (back) of the First Move, I have always been taught to step back Right and I would find it very counterintuitive to do otherwise.

Please God, not this again.

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I just don't know Salsa but find that hard to believe in view of the disparity in the music and the common origins of R & R and jive in its various forms.

I do know salsa, and I agree with you, it's difficult to believe.

OK, technically you can dance salsa to anything which has a 2-beat rhythm, but it'll look and feel very weird...

[Zebra Woman]

Of all the combinations of dances to have in an eveing I find modern Jive plus Salsa the most incongruous. I have only ever experienced it once at Cheshunt. It seemed really wierd to warm up , do a class, another warm up ....

and then not dance any salsa at all - all night.

I couldn't really see the point of doing a class in a dance form which would not be catered for by the DJ. Not that I would have wanted a salsa track to be played, as there were so few dancers who would have enjoyed it.

Dancing Salsa to ceroc music is extremely hard work as the whole dance has to be slowed right down and loses it's punch completely. To me it also feels completely wierd to dance salsa to non-salsa music.

IMO a Cha Cha (Cha? ) class would be infinitely more useful. I would expect at least 5 probably more chances to do that dance during a normal ceroc evening. You even hear real cha cha music at Ceroc freestyles. The cha cha step can even be blended into the middle of any MJ dance.

Like wise simple Lindy Hop steps too. They are a fab way of slowing down a fast track and adding musicality

Of all three Salsa is the worst fit with Ceroc IMO, purely because of the music.

Not to mention the fact that Salsa clubs are in direct competition with Ceroc nights. I don't think that is a huge factor, as IMO people will always gravitate towards their ideal dance in the end. It's kind of unstoppable.

ZW

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

OK, technically you can dance salsa to anything which has a 2-beat rhythm, but it'll look and feel very weird...

Gorillaz: "a' got sunshine" is brilliant to salsa to

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Not stepping on a beat (the four and the eight) in Salsa is very different from Ceroc and swing, where you add extra steps into the basic count (triple steps) rather than missing them out.

Outside the basic rhythm, there are plenty of fairly common footwork patterns in Lindy that involve not stepping on a particular beat. Different thing having it in the basic, I guess.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Re: ceroc being a salsa / jive fusion:

Well, that's what it says in the first sentence of the first page of the ceroc.com website

It's rubbish, of course - just a marketing ploy to add some "sexiness" to the dance. Apparently Latin is sexier than French, I don't know if Franck wants to comment on that?

Are there moves in MJ that also exist in Salsa? Do these moves exist in "traditional" jive (whatever that is)?

I know the answer to the first question, but would be interested in hear what the answer to the second question is.

If it's "no", then there must have been some sort of inclusion process which got these salsa moves into MJ. Let's call this process "fusion".

Originally Posted by Zerba Woman

Of all the combinations of dances to have in an eveing I find modern Jive plus Salsa the most incongruous.

Does MJ and Tango make sense? You can't switch between the two easily in the same dance, and much of the music for tango is too slow for normal MJ.

But a fusion exists, where lots of the moves of Tango have been taken and given a MJ make-over to make them fit the rest of the dance.

Is the same process not possible with Salsa and Jive? Isn't it possible that some of this claimed fusion actually did happen?

I'd be interesting in hearing a historical perspective, from anyone who actually knows the history of Modern Jive from experience.

[frodo]

Originally Posted by Tessalicious

Hey peeps, thanks for replying, and some interesting comments.

I have to say first that part of my conspiracy theory was that which Andreas mentioned, of Ceroc not wanting to introduce its members to 'the competition'. I can understand that this is an issue, and that they might think that certain types of people would be more attracted to the meat-market-type social ethic of Salsa clubs. One thing I'm curious about is why this doesn't apply to, for example, WCS, which can be a very sexy dance but doesn't seem to have this kind of image (in this country, yet ).

Perhaps WCS (like Lindy, and perhaps even AT) is always going to be a minority thing, so it represents no real competition.

Even elsewhere doesn't WCS have an older demographic than Salsa.

Originally Posted by Tessalicious

I'm fascinated that you guys don't agree with the salsa part of the fusion statement. Ok, so the footwork is more precise, but ....
...
The only other thing I can think of is that the dances are actually too similar, so the average basic intermediate might get confused, whereas they don't think this is a problem with the more disparate swing dances?...!

Certainly a problem for me, though less so in Salsa where you have the distinctive music, and the speed to remind you, whereas with the slower jive it is far too easy to switch to Salsa if not concentrating.

Maybe others find it an issue the other way around ?