Learning Tango

[CeeCee]

originally posted by Lory
then we had to do bizarre movements, which culminated in us walking round the room, resembling a load of chickens.. to top it off, the music suddenly broke into cuckoo noises

ahh the humiliation we endure in the name of dancing. I think you’re both very brave because I’d have probably left the workshop by then.

My journey along the path to Tango fulfilment continues.

Tonight I went to the beginners’ class at The Diorama Arts Centre, Regents Place, Euston, London NW1 run by Oktavian of Tango London www.Tangoinlondon.net. Unlike my unfortunate Piccadilly experience, this one was easy to find and parking was hassle free.

I was so impressed by the website, lots of yummy Tango stuff to read and savour, that I thought I’d give the Oktango class a try (also thought it might help to wean me off Federico’s classes).

When I arrived Oktavian was chatting with pupils about his dance career. He seemed very happy to talk about himself! He’s from Romania, has been dancing AT for four years and teaches other dances, which he demonstrated. They involved jumping, kicking and boot slapping and one of the ladies thought he was Morris dancing.

There were 16 women and 12 men, with no fixed couples. After a few exercises, our beginner Level 1 class concentrated on weight transference, arm tension and lots of bumping into each other, yes lots. His Level 1 and Level 2 classes take place in the same room and it was 'cosy' to say the least. For the second hour we had Yvonne and Gerald who taught us the Salida, which seems to bear an uncanny resemblance to the Basic 8. Yvonne also showed us the conita, which means little cross and is a cheeky little foot slotting move which I liked a lot.

There was no mention on the website of dancing on carpet (!) so as I value my knees and ankles, I won't be making this venue a regular haunt. However, I’ll definitely be going again next week because (err, how shall I put this) Oktavian sure knows how to turn on the charm…

[timbp]

Third lesson

Started as always with walking, forwards then backwards. The teacher then gave some more tips on getting it to look natural, smooth, relaxed.

Then we stood with weight on one foot (on the ball of the foot, knee slightly flexed) and moved the other foot forwards and backwards, with appropriate contra motion of the shoulders. Then started moving it forward, side, back -- ensuring we brought ankles together every time. Then from one side step, we changed our weight across -- aiming to have head remain completely level, with no rise and fall.

Connection exercise as usual. Then a quick revision of the basic 8 and the forward ochos. For the first time we were told about the direction of the dance (anticlockwise), and then we had several songs during which to practise.

Again, as one of the two unpartnered guys, I did most of my dancing with the pretty young female teacher. Who was very picky about technical points. (Which is a good thing, of course.) In fact, I got the impression she was bringing up more technical points with me than she normally would for someone in their third week. There was another couple she went into similar detail with, but for most people she was just helping them get the basic step.

Then we started on backwards ochos. First a demonstration and some explanation of the lead. In particular, explanation and demonstration of rotating the chest about its centre to rotate the girl about her centre. And rotating the chest does not include rotating the hips!

Useful tip for the guys to help the girls learn to follow the guy's chest. Replace the second or third button on your shirt with a large diamond stud. Your partner will then focus on the centre of your chest, and follow you everywhere.

We then split into male and female groups to learn and practise our separate parts, then paired up to practise together. this was the step I've had most trouble with. First, I kept forgetting a particular weight change, so I was often moving on the wrong foot as I led the girl into the first backward ocho. Second, I have a spine and muscles and skin that connect my shoulders to my hips -- so when I turn my chest, my hips also turn. I received two main comments from the teacher alternately: "you need to rotate your shoulders more", "Don't rotate your hips", "you need to rotate your shoulders more", "Don't rotate your hips"...

Towards the end of the class I had a short practice with another woman who's been doing tango for several years. I commented on how much I had to concentrate. Her reply: "That's the real reason nobody ever smiles in tango."

At this stage I can't imagine ever being able to actually dance tango properly. But I'm irremediably hooked on tango.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by CeeCee

There was no mention on the website of dancing on carpet (!) so as I value my knees and ankles, I won't be making this venue a regular haunt.

Dancing on carpet, not great - though not so bad for tango as MJ, I guess.

Originally Posted by CeeCee

However, I’ll definitely be going again next week because (err, how shall I put this) Oktavian sure knows how to turn on the charm…

I noticed on their website one of the atributes of a good follower - 'Wait for the lead for the cross'! So my current obession of how a cross is led and waiting for the lead isn't that crazy after all perhaps! (Was even trying to work it out at the Katie Melua concert on Mon night! )

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by timbp

Towards the end of the class I had a short practice with another woman who's been doing tango for several years. I commented on how much I had to concentrate. Her reply: "That's the real reason nobody ever smiles in tango."

God - that's just so true!

I know I've probably got an intense look of concentration on my face when I dance it...

[timbp]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I noticed on their website one of the atributes of a good follower - 'Wait for the lead for the cross'! So my current obession of how a cross is led and waiting for the lead isn't that crazy after all perhaps! (Was even trying to work it out at the Katie Melua concert on Mon night! )

How to lead the cross was one of the points the teacher was emphasising with me last night.

She also said that a lot of people don't teach lead/follow for the cross -- it gets taught as a set pattern, so because of this I'll find many women just going into the cross whether I lead it or not.

That was when I became convinced I had found the best people to learn from.

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by CeeCee

There was no mention on the website of dancing on carpet…

Some of us have to make do with cobbles

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...054852&q=tango

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by timbp

How to lead the cross was one of the points the teacher was emphasising with me last night..

I know this in theory but need to go over it in practice with a partner - hoping to be able to do this tomorrow night. When I try to 'lead' myself with a slight upper body turn (to reflect the upper body lead of the man) I must be doing it too late as my foot crosses OK - but behind!

Originally Posted by timbp

She also said that a lot of people don't teach lead/follow for the cross -- it gets taught as a set pattern, so because of this I'll find many women just going into the cross whether I lead it or not.

This would explain why several people I danced with (who have learnt in different places) have told me things like 'there is no lead for the cross' or 'the man just allows some space and the lady crosses'...

And the night our teacher taught it I ended up practicing it with a woman who didn't lead it but who would just stop and look pointedly at my uncrossed feet and refuse to move on until I had crossed them.

But I'm not going to cross until I'm led!

OK, I'll stop obessing about this - as soon as I get one good lead into a cross so that I know what it should feel like.

I was so desperate for a Tango dance that after a ceroc dance last night I did a little bit of Tango (to completely unsuitable music ) then back into ceroc!

[timbp]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I know this in theory but need to go over it in practice with a partner - hoping to be able to do this tomorrow night. When I try to 'lead' myself with a slight upper body turn (to reflect the upper body lead of the man) I must be doing it too late as my foot crosses OK - but behind!

This is what I expect when I think about it. I am leading the girl to step backwards, and when I turn to my left (actually straightening up from being turned to my right) I expect her free foot to go behind and cross, probably because I expect the turn to take the foot out (something like centrifugal force) and when it comes in it will be behind the pivot point (the fixed leg).
But if I really concentrate, I can visualise the lead/follow to make the cross in front.

Are you taught "two tracks, one track"? Think of floorboards (if they're wide enough for your foot and run in the direction you want to move).
We are taught that the entire dance is on two parallel tracks (adjacent floorboards). For a basic walk, both man and woman are stepping with one foot on each track. Think of two adjacent floorboards, one foot on each.

The basic 8 step (salida?) starts with the man stepping back (2 tracks). Then the man steps to the left, going from 2 tracks to 1. From here, the 2 forward steps are still on 2 tracks, but the man is walking on 1 track and the woman is walking on the other (to the man's right). So the man is walking on one floorboard, the woman on the next floorboard. At the cross the man leads the woman back to 2 tracks, but as her weight is on (her point of view) the right foot on the left track, the only way to go back to 2 tracks is to put her left foot on the right track -- CROSS!

And as for in front or behind -- I think that has to depend on when the guy provides the lead. But obviously if the guy leads it wrongly and thinks you've crossed in front, you're in trouble unless you know some way to pass one leg through another.

[LMC]

Obviously, I don't know what the lead is actually doing to make the cross happen, but it *feels* like a 'twitch' (!) - it's as if there's a very subtle lead for me to step forward on my left foot then as soon as I lift that foot, the lead is "no, actually, go back and right" - which given that my left foot is the one that is stepping, gives me no choice but to cross. Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture here, because I don't seem to be having too many problems with the crosses - although, like Lynn, I won't follow it if it isn't led.

It's just everything else that I haven't worked out yet... can't wait until next Tuesday, I have missed tango this week.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by timbp

This is what I expect when I think about it. I am leading the girl to step backwards, and when I turn to my left (actually straightening up from being turned to my right) I expect her free foot to go behind and cross, probably because I expect the turn to take the foot out (something like centrifugal force) and when it comes in it will be behind the pivot point (the fixed leg).

This is just me trying it at home, imagining that slight turn and seeing what it does to my feet if I don't think about it. But of course I can't actually lead myself!

Originally Posted by timbp

And as for in front or behind -- I think that has to depend on when the guy provides the lead. But obviously if the guy leads it wrongly and thinks you've crossed in front, you're in trouble unless you know some way to pass one leg through another.

If I'm with a partner, I know the cross should be in front so that's what I'll do. The problem was more there being no lead for the cross, it was just expected as it was in the sequence of steps being taught. (I have to add this is despite the teacher telling the leads to make sure they vary the steps, don't just go over the same sequence, women make sure they are following etc... but people seem to like to learn and practice patterns.)

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by LMC

Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture here, because I don't seem to be having too many problems with the crosses - although, like Lynn, I won't follow it if it isn't led.

Yeah, I know I'm obsessing about this at the moment, sorry, my own fault for having asked various leads 'is there a lead for this?'. And not being led it, most of the time. I have been led it in the milonga time at Scarborough but I was in 'follow and flow' mode, not trying to think about steps too much. The connection is king when I'm like that and I'm not actually consciously thinking about what I'm doing too much!

Originally Posted by LMC

It's just everything else that I haven't worked out yet... can't wait until next Tuesday, I have missed tango this week.

I hope your evening was worth missing tango...

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Yeah, I know I'm obsessing about this at the moment, sorry, my own fault for having asked various leads 'is there a lead for this?'.

Nah, is not a problem, except me now being paranoid and wondering if I'm missing something - I just know I get obsessed with things too

[timbp]

Originally Posted by LMC

Obviously, I don't know what the lead is actually doing to make the cross happen

What I've been taught (or what I understand from what my teachers have tried to teach me)

Basic 8 step (from the man/lead point of view)

Step back right. Both partners on 2 tracks (i.e. man's left foot and woman's right foot on one (the same) floorboard; man's right foot and woman's left foot on the adjacent floorboard).

Step left turning chest towards the right. This shortens the woman's step.
Result is man's left foot on one track (left track from man's view), woman's right foot on the other track (right track).

Man walks forward on one (left) track; woman walks backward on one (right) track. Man's chest is turned towards the right to place the lady on the right track while man walks on the left track. Hips face ahead as that is the direction of movement.

For the cross, the man turns his chest to the front, going back to 2 tracks. This leads the woman back to 2 tracks, but her weight is on her right foot on the right track (her left track). So for her to step her left foot onto the other track, she must cross. But as I said earlier, I can't see anything other than the timing of the lead that would indicate whether the cross is in front or behind.

[JonD]

I'm about 2 weeks behind on this thread and haven't had a chance to catch up yet so forgive me for commenting before I've read all the posts.

I find partners who "cross on 5" without the cross being led a bit irritating - sometimes I like to take several steps outside to the left and it's a bit disconcerting when your partner suddenly crosses out of the blue.

A cross is, as far as I'm aware, always in front if the lady is walking backwards. The timing of the lead is critical as if it's too late the ladies working leg will have passed her standing leg and so she will simply step behind.

Originally Posted by timbp

For the cross, the man turns his chest to the front

I've found that this movement is much clearer if you make sure you really disassociate when you are walking outside so that there is a clear movement when you come back in line. So often we think we're disassociating but we've not actually turned our upper body very far. (Video is a useful thing!) I think about ensuring that my thighs touch as I step forward on my right - as you step forward feel your right thigh come into contact with your left thigh then, as you lead the cross by coming back in line, you can feel that pressure ease. Well, it helps me! (Once you're happy, try leading a cross the other way - walk outside to the right and lead your partner to cross right in front of left. It's a good way of working on the lead and gives you some interesting options - plus it's less usual to work on the closed side of the embrace and so surprises your partner).

Julie and I spent an hour walking through the first minute of her 5 minute routine this week. She's done a fab job on the choreography but it's going to be hard work learning it. We're going to practice for 12 hours over the weekend and I hope I'll have it all in my head by the end. Then I've got to start dancing it rather than just "marking" it!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

I find partners who "cross on 5" without the cross being led a bit irritating - sometimes I like to take several steps outside to the left and it's a bit disconcerting when your partner suddenly crosses out of the blue.

Thank you! And to other posts on this thread - I don't feel bad now about not crossing unless led, despite the 'you just should cross at this part' attitude I've had from some partners.

Originally Posted by JonD

A cross is, as far as I'm aware, always in front if the lady is walking backwards. The timing of the lead is critical as if it's too late the ladies working leg will have passed her standing leg and so she will simply step behind.

Oh, that's also really useful. My own working it out in the living room by myself seemed to suggest that - I was trying to 'lead' myself to cross to see what my feet did and this was what was happening. I knew it was because I was trying to work it out myself but I did wonder if it meant that the timing of the lead had anything to do with it. (I so would love a tango dance partner to practice all these things with!)

Originally Posted by JonD

Julie and I spent an hour walking through the first minute of her 5 minute routine this week. She's done a fab job on the choreography but it's going to be hard work learning it. We're going to practice for 12 hours over the weekend and I hope I'll have it all in my head by the end. Then I've got to start dancing it rather than just "marking" it!

*

Maybe you and Julie could show us at Southport in June at the milonga time?



*I like the new smilie but does anyone else get a twinge of wanting to correct the spelling when they use it? Or is that just me?

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by LMC

That'ud be the one, except we didn't do the forward bit, as you pointed out. I wasn't sure if it was still called a salida without that forward step...

See, we can work it out together

The salida can be initiated by
(a) the reverse start (leader steps back right)
(b) side step (leader steps right,then left)
(c) stepping forwards on the right without either a side or back step
It shouldn't matter to the follower - you just follow the lead...

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Thank you! And to other posts on this thread - I don't feel bad now about not crossing unless led, despite the 'you just should cross at this part' attitude I've had from some partners.
Oh, that's also really useful. My own working it out in the living room by myself seemed to suggest that - I was trying to 'lead' myself to cross to see what my feet did and this was what was happening. I knew it was because I was trying to work it out myself but I did wonder if it meant that the timing of the lead had anything to do with it. (I so would love a tango dance partner to practice all these things with!)
*

Maybe you and Julie could show us at Southport in June at the milonga time?




*I like the new smilie but does anyone else get a twinge of wanting to correct the spelling when they use it? Or is that just me?

Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over. It's the lead's job to make sure you do that....

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over. It's the lead's job to make sure you do that....

What, possibly fall over? Oh, I've danced with some leads like that!

(Sorry YB, couldn't resist it!).

Tango class tonight!

[Yogi_Bear]

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