Learning Tango

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over.

- if a cross is led well, you really don't have a "choice".

I think tangueros need to have an 'I can tango' badge or something at MJ events as I'm usually trying to find someone when suitable music comes on....

Unfortunately, that'ud get me sued under the Trades Descriptions Act. Howzabout "Ask me to tango" ?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

It's good to have all this detailed tango feedback on the Forum - I really must find time to read all of this thread. I think tangueros need to have an 'I can tango' badge or something at MJ events as I'm usually trying to find someone when suitable music comes on....

Or maybe a secret signal...

I know what you mean. Fortunately due to there being 4 tango classes at Scarborough I was able to identify some of the tango dancers and rush to grab one when suitable music came on. I wasn't always fast enough though.

Having been listening to Tango music a lot recently, I was so frustrated at there being a fellow tango beginner at ceroc this week that after a MJ dance we did a little bit of tango - despite the music not being very suitable!

Originally Posted by LMC

Unfortunately, that'ud get me sued under the Trades Descriptions Act. Howzabout "Ask me to tango" ?

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Or maybe a secret signal...

You mean you haven't been told it

SpinDr

P.S. Try drawing a lapiz (pencil) when you have time / space when dancing -- and see whether the leader notices

[JonD]

Originally Posted by philsmove

Getting irritated is a complete no no

You're dead right Phil - and on the rare occasions that it happens I hope I don't let my irritation show. It's a bit like backleading or bouncing though - something that you haven't led, that adds nothing to the dance and just kind of "steams through your lead".

Originally Posted by Me!

as you step forward feel your right thigh come into contact with your left thigh then, as you lead the cross by coming back in line, you can feel that pressure ease

Sorry, I just figured out that we were talking Salida and the above only works when you're on opposite feet. I think it's still true though, if you are conscious of your thighs touching when you step forward right then you'll be disassociated enough to make the cross lead clear on the next step on your left.

Originally Posted by Yogi-Bear

Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over. It's the lead's job to make sure you do that....

You've been watching me! I did once trip a partner up and have to catch her to stop her ending in a heap on the floor. Fortunately she saw the funny side and we ended up in fits of laughter - but it wasn't very AT.

Originally Posted by spindr

Try drawing a lapiz (pencil) when you have time / space when dancing -- and see whether the leader notices

Great idea - the "Lapiz Club"!

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I was so frustrated at there being a fellow tango beginner at ceroc this week that after a MJ dance we did a little bit of tango - despite the music not being very suitable!

Kev f is the master of this he can sling a bit of Tango in just about anytime and anywhere, without warning!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Lory

Kev f is the master of this he can sling a bit of Tango in just about anytime and anywhere, without warning!

Looking forward to my next dance with Kev F then!

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by JonD

on the rare occasions that it happens I hope I don't let my irritation show. !

Only seen you get irritated once
“10 Euros for a small carafe of plonk"

[timbp]

Originally Posted by philsmove

If however the follower crosses when one was not led
Or does not cross when one was intended
It up to the leader to sort it out

This brought to mind a problem I had in my last class (not at all a result of the woman not following properly).

I had been walking through the basic 8 with the teacher, and had just led her into the cross when I realised (a little late, I know) that another couple was in the way, and another couple very close on my left. I just paused, waiting for the couple ahead of me to move on, but they came out of the embrace and stood there talking about what they had been doing.

the only place available for me to move was to my right. But I looked at my partners feet (in the cross) and thought there is no way I can get her to step to my right. So I broke out of the embrace, and the teacher complimented me on not running her into the couple behind, and on how clearly I led the pause.

Since then I've worked out how I could have danced out of that position.
The main lesson to me is that I'm both a beginner and not. I had the floorcraft to know what the problem was, and where I needed to move. But I didnt' have the tango knowledge to dance the solution.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
I noticed on their website one of the atributes of a good follower - 'Wait for the lead for the cross'! So my current obession of how a cross is led and waiting for the lead isn't that crazy after all perhaps!

No not crazy at all Lynn, I agree with you

Originally posted by LMC
I don't know what the lead is actually doing to make the cross happen, but it *feels* like a 'twitch' (!)

A guy told me at a milonga that I had to watch out for him to ‘twitch’ because that was his lead for me to do a cross.

Other leaders have told me that the lead for the cross is when he lifts me (!) or when he dips his shoulders (!) or when he winks at me (!) or when he leans to the side (!) or when he stops dancing and looks at my feet (!)
Luckily this advice didn’t come from the same source.

Originally posted by Lynn
who would just stop and look pointedly at my uncrossed feet and refuse to move on until I had crossed them.

Another guy at a class did just that too, he told me that when he stops and looks at my feet, it is the signal for me to cross.

Originally posted by Lynn
The problem was more there being no lead for the cross, it was just expected as it was in the sequence of steps being taught.

Yep!

Originally posted by timbp
She also said that a lot of people don't teach lead/follow for the cross -- it gets taught as a set pattern,

Yep! It seems that way at the moment because we are all new but our lovely leaders have to start somewhere and they are learning where to put the cross in a set of moves, in time they will be able to lead us into it and we'll be able to follow it, then yippee!

All this learning is great fun isn’t it?

[LMC]

Cee Cee - conflicting advice or what

Timbp's description of the lead makes sense - but to me as an inexperienced follower, it still feels like a twitch I did notice that I was only able to follow the cross from experienced leads - and as we are beginners, we're dancing mainly with beginners in classes, so let's not be too hard on ourselves (mentioning no names Lynn )

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Hmm, speaking of slo-mo - can anyone recommend any good tango DVDs?

Julie and I bought an excellent one in BsAs and I've just found the web site - Tango Estilo del Centro. There is a "class on-line" that gives an idea of the DVD and it's worth looking at - the DVD has loads of similar sections.

The more we look at the DVD the more we find in it; there are tons and tons and tons of figures to play with, presented in the same way as the on-line class. Tips on basic technique come out in those rather than in a distinct section. If you slow it down by x32 you can really see what they are doing and wonder at it! Julie has trawled through and stolen some figures for this damn display that I'm dreading so much. I'm not sure about the English commentary - you can hear Daniel and Dolores rattling on in Spanish and then the translator says about 3 words in English - but they seem to make a lot of sense so I guess they are just paraphrasing.

There seems to be a form for ordering the DVD but it isn't exactly clear (like no details of price). I'd email them and make sure they will despatch to the UK - and have a Region 2 version (unless you've got a region free DVD player or can hack yours).

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by LMC

:, so let's not be too hard on ourselves )

Isn’t it nice to share experiences?

Things on my list to sort

Navigation
Musicality
Finding the start and end of a phrase
The embrace
Knowing (without looking) if my partner is the cross
Remembering the move that allows a sharp change of direction when “boxed in”

ALL at the same time

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by CeeCee

{ snip list of cross "leads" }

It's actually a bit depressing, I still have an unconscious assumption that everyone who's done enough AT (i.e. 1 year or more) will be Dance Gods.

So it's a bit of an anti-climax to learn that some of them don't even realise that a cross is supposed to be led, and not using some sort of secret signal or wink...

Oh well, hey ho.

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by JonD

There seems to be a form for ordering the DVD but it isn't exactly clear (like no details of price). I'd email them and make sure they will despatch to the UK - and have a Region 2 version (unless you've got a region free DVD player or can hack yours).

Me! Me! Me! Me! Not knowing some figures (I know, I know, listen to the music) is holding me back from just diving in and dancing.

If you can place a "bulk order" should make P&P less.

anyone else want a DVD?

CRL

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

anyone else want a DVD?

CRL

Yes Please

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

Me! Me! Me! Me! Not knowing some figures (I know, I know, listen to the music) is holding me back from just diving in and dancing.

If you can place a "bulk order" should make P&P less.

anyone else want a DVD?

CRL

I Do Clive !!
Will you practice with me though

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It's actually a bit depressing, I still have an unconscious assumption that everyone who's done enough AT (i.e. 1 year or more) will be Dance Gods.

So it's a bit of an anti-climax to learn that some of them don't even realise that a cross is supposed to be led, and not using some sort of secret signal or wink...

This flippin' cross business...!

We did the 16 count basic (?) tonight - 8 count with a sort of turn around thingy as part of it after the cross, back into outside walk, cross and close.

I was dancing it with a female lead (we are down to about 20 in the class - only 8 men) and the teacher came over to help by going through it with us. So I asked her about the cross - was there a lead? She said no. I then asked what if the lead takes more than the 2 steps outside - she said I should cross anyway to show him I know I should cross at that point. You just do, she told me, its a sort of rule.

So basically stop following then? I think I'm even more confused as I had been sure she had shown a lead for the cross in week 2. So in this class I'm just going to cross when I'm 'supposed to' and not ask any more about it.

We also did ochos tonight - all completely led by the arms - and I thought that the lead was supposed to come from the chest?

I wonder are both these points because we are being taught by a woman, with no male demo? She does seem very good at showing the women's steps and styling, it just seems to be areas of the lead that I am noticing are being taught very differently to what I have heard elsewhere.

Between that and the fact that we did this step over and over, with no practica time at the end so I only really got part of one 'follow' dance, I came away feeling very deflated. I'm sad about Tango tonight.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

anyone else want a DVD?

Me!

And can I order someone to practice with as well? (Male order? OK - groan, I know, its almost 2am...)

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I wonder are both these points because we are being taught by a woman, with no male demo? She does seem very good at showing the women's steps and styling, it just seems to be areas of the lead that I am noticing are being taught very differently to what I have heard elsewhere.

I don't think it's just because there is no male demo. Ruth Zimmerman often teaches on her own and is a demon for getting the lead elements right. I'm a bit at a loss to explain it - your first few classes seemed to be giving you the principles of lead/follow and now you're definitively told there is no lead for the cross and folk are being allowed to lead ochos from their arms. Strange. I think I'd go back to the teacher next week and ask her to confirm what she said - maybe she was just having an off night!

There is, quite definitely, a clear lead for a cross. A cross can be led both sides (left foot in front of right and vice versa), from parallel or opposite feet and when walking outside or in-line. I know because I lead them all the time and I don't raise my eyebrow, lick my lips, shrug my shoulders or look at my partner's feet to achieve it (well, OK, I do occasionally lick my lips but that's nothing to do with the cross). Equally, leading ochos without any arm contact is a fairly normal beginner exercise for practicing lead/follow. They are all just steps - you don't need any special "magic" to make them happen.

I'm sad about Tango tonight.

Tons and tons of sympathy! It'll get better and you'll be back to loving it soon. At Southport I'll lead you into so many crosses it'll make you dizzy - if we're in adjacent chalets we can cross and ocho our way along the veranda (but not down the steps)!

[timbp]