Learning Tango

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

I'm a bit at a loss to explain it - your first few classes seemed to be giving you the principles of lead/follow and now you're definitively told there is no lead for the cross and folk are being allowed to lead ochos from their arms. ...snip...Equally, leading ochos without any arm contact is a fairly normal beginner exercise for practicing lead/follow.

Re the ochos - it could be that she is concentrating at this point on getting the footwork and body position correct and will talk more about the leading in another week. So it could be just a different teaching style. I prefer (in a dance like tango) to spend more time on getting the basics right at the start even but perhaps others find it boring and want to see more progression in actual moves? She did talk about connection a bit this week but she was getting us to feel this connection through our arms in a two handed hold facing (tension and compression, though she didn't use those terms). That would all make sense to me in a MJ class, but perhaps she will build from that to the 'chest' lead. I just feel that will mean having to learn to do something one way, then learn not to do it that way...

(And if I hadn't done the classes at Scarborough I wouldn't know that ochos aren't arm led so it wouldn't be bothering me. As it was, seeing the guys standing completely still and steering the women round with big arm movements, was frustrating me a bit, but I can't really say anything, just keep following...)

Originally Posted by JonD

There is, quite definitely, a clear lead for a cross. A cross can be led both sides (left foot in front of right and vice versa), from parallel or opposite feet and when walking outside or in-line.

The cross - I sort of wish I had never wondered about this in the first place but as a follow I can't help but want to, well, follow! So I want to know how things are led. But on thinking about it....

Originally Posted by timbp

I wondered if I (and you) had misunderstood, and that she was actually telling you to do the cross in the class because the beginner guys can't lead it.

...not exactly that, but I think now that she thought I was talking about the lead for the cross in the basic 8. And if you are doing the basic 8 you always cross at that point. Fair enough. But in social dancing you don't just do the basic 8 around the room! I will perservere and ask her again and make it clear I'm not just asking about the lead for the cross in the basic 8.

Originally Posted by JonD

Tons and tons of sympathy! It'll get better and you'll be back to loving it soon.

Thanks - its probably because tango does touch us at an emotional level that means it can also make you sad. I'm really looking forward to Southport to dancing with more experienced leads, wish there was somewhere locally, even once a month where I could do that. (Hopefully as I progress I'll be able to go down to Dublin sometimes for workshops, practicas and eventually, *gulp* milongas!).

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lynn

So I asked her about the cross - was there a lead? She said no. I then asked what if the lead takes more than the 2 steps outside - she said I should cross anyway to show him I know I should cross at that point. You just do, she told me, its a sort of rule.

Hold on, let me check, this is a tango teacher telling you this? Someone you pay money to?

Ignore her, even I know she's talking total junk. By her criteria, you'd never be able to improvise, and AT is all about improvisation. I'm sorry, but that's just shocking... I wouldn't even accept that in a Ceroc class, let alone an AT class. Grrrr....

EDIT: Giving vast benefit of the doubt, it's possible she was solely talking about this silly basic 8 thing. But even so, surely it's good form to lead the cross in that, simply so leaders and followers recognise the lead for it in freestyle?

Originally Posted by Lynn

We also did ochos tonight - all completely led by the arms - and I thought that the lead was supposed to come from the chest?

Yes, that's what I believe - again, if you want to lead / be led with the arms, you might as well just do MJ.

It's possible to lead ochos and giros - and swap between them - without even touching; in the class Clive and I go to, the teacher (also female) demonstrated that, a while back.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I'm sad about Tango tonight.

I don't blame you, your teacher seems to be contradicting everything everyone else is saying. Don't panic; have the confidence to believe that you're right and she's wrong. As I mentioned, it's difficult to get that confidence when you're a beginner in a new dance, but in this instance, your teacher doesn't sound too smart. But AT is still a lovely dance, stick with it.

Remember, it is a male-led dance, and the cross is both leadable and led. A very good description of the lead was given up ^^ somewhere...

I don't suppose there are any other classes you could go to?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Hold on, let me check, this is a tango teacher telling you this? Someone you pay money to?

Believe it or not, I still haven't lost confidence in the teacher. I just think she is over-simplifying things as a teaching method. And if I hadn't experienced another teacher at Scarborough (and read other people's experiences on here) I wouldn't be bothered (well OK I still would be questioning the lead for the cross, but not the arm led ochos)

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Grrrr....

Did feel a bit like this last night, when I wasn't feeling sad about it.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It's possible to lead ochos and giros - and swap between them - without even touching; in the class Clive and I go to, the teacher (also female) demonstrated that, a while back.

Ivan (teacher at Scarborough) didn't go that far but he emphasised not leading with the arms and getting people to lead ochos with the man's hands behind his back and woman's hands on his shoulders.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I don't suppose there are any other classes you could go to?

Nope, this is it for NI. (There is another class but I've been told its a mix of ballroom and AT? Would probably be even more confusing). I'll just have to save up for classes and workshops in Dublin (or even occasionally London, a flight to London is only about £10 more than the train to Dublin!)

And I am not giving up on this, no matter how frustrated I get!

[philsmove]

She did talk about connection a bit this week but she was getting us to feel this connection through our arms in a two handed hold facing (tension and compression, though she didn't use those terms).

This is the “practice embrace” but the lead should not be using his arms to lead

His Upper body (chest) should lead

The arms are used to keep you in position, not to lead

It is impossible to lead if there is no connection

I not found any one, who can explain, in words, how the connection works

But when it does work properly, there is no lead or follower, just two people who have become one

You need to watch a really good dancers to get some idea of how it works

Have you tried the full embrace

Some teachers seem reluctant to try this as it can be intimidating with a total stranger who is not used to partner dancing .It is impossible to use your arms to lead , as they are round your partners neck

Are the leaders in your class from MJ

If so they have some “unlearning” to do


Ps easy jet do cheap flights to bristol

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Lynn

The cross - I sort of wish I had never wondered about this in the first place ....

That makes me smile: I remember when I learnt the cross from Ruth and Fernando in a class nearly four years ago. They hadn't been teaching long and prefaced the lesson by saying "Now, this is going to be difficult". Sure enough, we all found it incredibly difficult. It took me ages to get it. About a year ago I went to a beginner class where Ruth taught the cross without any preamble at all - just like taking a step. Everyone got it really quickly and, remembering the trouble I'd had, I said something to Ruth about it. She smiled and replied "Well, I'm learning too".

Believe it or not, I still haven't lost confidence in the teacher. I just think she is over-simplifying things as a teaching method.

I think you are right. We've got to remember that we're dance junkies and probably wouldn't mind having 2 months of classes on basic technique where most of the rest of the class actually want to be able to feel they are dancing after a couple of weeks. I'm sure she'll develop the lead/follow aspect as the course continues - hope so anyway.

Right - off to practice with Julie. I've been at work all day so we're going to have to work on this bl**dy routine late into the evening. (I love it really!)

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by philsmove

This is the “practice embrace” but the lead should not be using his arms to lead

I thought the practice was holding each others arms? This was holding hands in the same way as a ceroc 'in and out' move and getting a woman to step forward on her left by pulling on her left hand.

Originally Posted by philsmove

Have you tried the full embrace

Some teachers seem reluctant to try this as it can be intimidating with a total stranger who is not used to partner dancing .It is impossible to use your arms to lead , as they are round your partners neck

Yes, she did show us in week one, though we didn't use it this week. I feel more connection in the embrace, perhaps because the lead has to be more subtle - the man can't 'pull' me around.

Originally Posted by philsmove

Are the leaders in your class from MJ

If so they have some “unlearning” to do

No, only 2 are and they don't seem to be having any 'unlearning' problems. I'm the only MJ follower in the class.

Originally Posted by philsmove

Ps easy jet do cheap flights to bristol

I know! I just need to get a better paid job so I can afford to pop over to different places for weekend breaks!

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

..... and not using some sort of secret signal or wink...

They say a nod is as good as a wink.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
I came away feeling very deflated. I'm sad about Tango tonight.

Aww Lynn, you brought a tear to my eye, I feel so deeply sorry for you and want to give you a hug. Nothing but nothing should be allowed to make you feel sad and interfere with your passion for Tango.

She’s lucky that you haven’t lost confidence in her as a teacher and you may be right about her over simplified teaching style. Fortunately, you know how to follow and not to anticipate so perhaps just treat her comments as a minor irritation and carry on.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Philsmove
Of the three classes I attend only one uses the basic 8

Originally posted by timbp
Not a lot of mention of lead and follow once we got into the 8 step basic.


Then a talk about how the 8 step is just a practise exercise, and in actual dancing you use whatever steps you want.

Originally posted by DJ on our other tango thread
That seems to be the problem with the basic 8 - or any sequence really - it doesn't teach you to lead, and it may inculcate bad habits.

Hey guys, seems that we are not alone.
Found this cheerful post on an American Tango Forum which describes itself as an independent newsletter for the Chicago Community. http://www.tangonoticias.com/tangota...=642&forum=9&1

(oh dear, now I'm having a little panic because I've no idea if the link will work)

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by CeeCee

Aww Lynn, you brought a tear to my eye, I feel so deeply sorry for you and want to give you a hug. Nothing but nothing should be allowed to make you feel sad and interfere with your passion for Tango.

Thanks. I know I have many wonderful tango dances ahead of me in the future so I'll think about those instead of my current frustations. Actually a big thanks to all the forumites who responded to my posts about my last class, its really made me feel a lot better about it all.

Originally Posted by CeeCee

Fortunately, you know how to follow and not to anticipate so perhaps just treat her comments as a minor irritation and carry on.

I think thats part of my frustration, I'm not getting to practice following a lead. (I'm going to invite a friend from the class round for a meal on the condition that we dance tango after dinner!)

And I'm also frustrated that we are talking a lot about connection and lead and follow, then spending most of our time learning a set pattern of steps and repeating a learned sequence. I would rather spend ages just walking in pairs feeling the connection, but others might get bored with that. Its also because for me connection feels key in tango, rather than worrying about what my feet are doing. Probably a stage I will progress past but its where I am at the moment.

Its good that this thread is an opportunity for us to share our frustrations in learning tango, as well as the highs!

Originally Posted by CeeCee

(oh dear, now I'm having a little panic because I've no idea if the link will work)

It worked!

[LMC]

4th lesson...

Hamza gem: "surprise yourself"

Easy, 'cos I haven't a clue what I'm doing!

Lots and lots of walking tonight. The main focus was on grapevine steps, with an eye to doing ?boleros (didn't quite catch the name) next week. Frustrated for most of the evening because there were a few women over (and we're all *hopeless* leaders, I'm the worst!) and a few very new dancers who haven't done other dance styles and were struggling with frame and connection. So a large part of the evening was like the blind leading the blind: I knew we weren't doing it right, but didn't know what "right" should look or feel like.

Then about 10 minutes before the end, I finally got my only "go" of the evening with Hamza and the penny dropped on following the chest lead (and about time!). So I've come away feeling quite positive and very anxious to practise - I'm suddenly feeling the need to get some freestyle - look out guys

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by LMC

I knew we weren't doing it right, but didn't know what "right" should look or feel like.

Sounds very familiar...

Originally Posted by LMC

So I've come away feeling quite positive and very anxious to practise - I'm suddenly feeling the need to get some freestyle - look out guys

Fab! Things do 'click' more when you get to practice them with an experienced lead. Hope you get lots of practice dances.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Ivan (teacher at Scarborough) didn't go that far but he emphasised not leading with the arms and getting people to lead ochos with the man's hands behind his back and woman's hands on his shoulders.

I've been practicing this type of lead over the past few weeks, in private sessions, and it's amazing how it works - it's like magic, you can lead a woman into forwards, backwards, ochos, giros (and swap between them), just using your chest to lead. I haven't tried to lead a cross that way yet, admittedly...

But considering 95% of the dancing I've done has been "hand-led", this has been a real eye-opener for me. Maybe all practise tango sessions should be hands-free

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by LMC

4th lesson...

Lots and lots of walking tonight. The main focus was on grapevine steps, with an eye to doing ?boleros (didn't quite catch the name) next week. D

Boleos -

Boleo
Seductive and elegant, Boleos always involve the swivelling action of the hips; and a whiplash effect from one leg - otherwise they look, and feel unfinished. This step is essentially an interrupted Ocho whose energy is released and channelled into a lovely circular or linear movement of the women's leg. With the knees together, and one leg back, the woman swivels, and then returns to the starting position, finishing on the supporting leg. The move should be executed with a whipping action on the working leg.

It is an incredibly versatile step - Boleos can be done low and close to the floor in which case they tend to be slower, but they can also be high, and therefore quicker, with loads of released energy. They can be performed either forwards or backwards, as linear or circular figures.

In the circular versions, the knees of the woman should be kept close together, with the working leg not travelling too far. In the linear ones, the leg can journey as far as possible. But which ever version is being performed, the woman's working leg should always be returned with a whiplash motion - the word Boleo comes from Boleadores - the Gaucho's tool for catching cattle, which is used like a whip.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I've been practicing this type of lead over the past few weeks, in private sessions, and it's amazing how it works - it's like magic, you can lead a woman into forwards, backwards, ochos, giros (and swap between them), just using your chest to lead.

I'd love to try following like that, I think its a great exercise for the follower as well, to follow properly and not wait to be 'steered' into position.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I haven't tried to lead a cross that way yet, admittedly...

What's a cross then? Never heard of those.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lynn

What's a cross then? Never heard of those.

Don't worry about it, they just happen, they don't need to be led or followed.

Actually, the reason I think the cross is so important, is that there's so many different things you can do from it; ochos. giros, forward-and-back, etc. So it's a key "base" step I guess, which is why it's so important to be able to lead it.