Learning Tango - Page 13

**Rachel** · 22nd-February-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMC

...Watching the chest and trying to follow that, while the arms are leading you to do something different is *impossible*...

I may not do tango - yet! - but I love reading everyone's tango posts and feel like I'm picking things up from them. (Vicarious tango??)

But I was having a conversation with Marc just the other day , re. modern jive, saying that the problem I find with some men is that their body is leading you one way, but their hands are leading you somewhere completely different. Something we'll need to try and get across in the classes, somehow.

Funnily, we've stolen the tango idea of hands on chest and introduced that for lead/follow practise in a couple of Ceroc workshops *. It seemed to go down very well.

Rachel

Edit * if I remember correctly, Franck did this too in one of his BFG workshops. It's great - I love it.

TheTramp · 22nd-February-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel

Funnily, we've stolen the tango idea of hands on chest and introduced that for lead/follow practise in a couple of Ceroc workshops. It seemed to go down very well.

I am trying so hard not to comment on this!!

**Rachel** · 22nd-February-2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

I am trying so hard not to comment on this!!

No comment? You surprise me!

You know what I meant, though - just too lazy to find a better phrasing ....

TheTramp · 22nd-February-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel

No comment? You surprise me!

I'm very shy...

**David Bailey** · 22nd-February-2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel

Funnily, we've stolen the tango idea of hands on chest and introduced that for lead/follow practise in a couple of Ceroc workshops *. It seemed to go down very well.

Ignoring the smut, the really impressive version is "no contact at all" - that really is like magic, you can't believe this is being led, there are almost no visible signals.

**Rachel** · 22nd-February-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Ignoring the smut, the really impressive version is "no contact at all" - that really is like magic, you can't believe this is being led, there are almost no visible signals.

Franck also got us trying that that in his BFG workshop

It's so hard! I can only do the 'hands on chest' thing with my eyes closed, you see. And that makes 'no contact at all' a bit difficult ...
R. x

**philsmove** · 22nd-February-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Ignoring the smut, the really impressive version is "no contact at all" - that really is like magic, you can't believe this is being led, there are almost no visible signals.

One my teachers , Eduardo

, sometimes demonstrates this - with a 10 foot gap between himself and his partner

timbp · 23rd-February-2006, 08:07 AM

Lesson 4

In this class, the teacher started to emphasise the improvisational nature of the dance.

We started, as always, with walking, forwards then back.

Then standing on one foot, moving the free leg. The idea is to isolate the movement to that free leg. The rest of the body should not move, except a slight rotation of the torso -- when left leg is forward, right shoulder should be slightly forward. But your axis should not move, however you are moving your leg. We repeated this with the other leg free.

Next, we stood feet together, weight on the right foot, and did a quarter turn to the right. Shoulders turn first, and the turn is tranmitted down until the feet move. Four quarter turns to get back to the start, then change weight to the left foot, and four quarter turns to the left. Then weight on left foot, four quarter turns to the right; weight on right foot, four quarter turns to the left.

We then partnered up, he put some music on and told us to move around the floor in the line of dance, just doing forward steps and open/side steps. My leading was atrocious. I was ok walking forward, but couldn't seem to manage a change to an open step, or from open to forward. And I was continually trying to my partner on the wrong. I did improve as the exercise went on, and the female teacher explained a bit of what I was doing wrong. BUt I was still so often not recognising which foot the girl was on, or not leading her to change her weight.

We then learned the sandwich. (The teacher does mention the non-english names, but I can't seem to catch them. Checking wikipedia, I think this the mordida.)

Then we practised the pattern (8 basic with the sandwich included). And then he told us to remember to practise our other steps (forward and reverse ochos), and he started to emphasise improvisation -- practise the steps, but dance them as you feel appropriate to the music, space, etc.

I was still wrong-footing my partner. I was also watching my feet almost all the time. I would be watching my feet while thinking "don't watch your feet". BUt I managed to lead the various steps reasonably well. It helped that I now felt I had permission to mix up the steps, rather than just using the basic 8 pattern, so I could try to concentrate on where I wanted to move and how to lead there, rather than trying to remember what was the next step I was meant to do. I even managed to move in time to the music some of the time, and even some small interpretation (in terms of pauses or varying the speed of steps).

At the end of the class, someone asked a question. I didn't actually catch what he said, but it was related to improvisation and remembering steps/patterns. The teacher put on some music, and danced the pattern we'd just learned (basic 8 including the sandwich) through three times, but adding pauses or extra weight changes, making some steps slow, others fast. The same basic pattern three times, but it looked so different you could think he had never repeated a step.

Graham W · 23rd-February-2006, 11:52 AM

No time to read all thread yet,(prompted to by Philsmove) but just to throw my hat in the ring - been learning ArgTango since Oct 05 & really enjoying the experience - lots of diff teachers & a diff vibe altogether from jive..

G

**David Bailey** · 23rd-February-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham W

No time to read all thread yet,(prompted to by Philsmove) but just to throw my hat in the ring - been learning ArgTango since Oct 05 & really enjoying the experience - lots of diff teachers & a diff vibe altogether from jive..

G

We need a roll call thread...

stefanofava · 23rd-February-2006, 01:06 PM

Hi all,
it seems that passion for Argentine Tango is growing fast amonst Ceroc people. I hope you don't mind if I remind you of our Argentine Tango Workshops in Aberdeen (Station Hotel) this Sat afternoon 25th February (followed by a Milonga in the evening).
The full programme is on our web site under this page:
http://www.tangoinaction.com/services.htm

Alexandra and I hope to meet you soon

Happy dancing...!!

Stefano and Alexandra
Tango in Action

**Lynn** · 23rd-February-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

We need a roll call thread...

Good idea!

**JonD** · 23rd-February-2006, 01:13 PM

Tim, that sounds like a really good class! I had a terrible time "freeing" my working leg. I couldn't understand how, without tilting your hips, you could have two legs the same length, stand on one and have the other one so it could swing free. But, if you really focus on pushing down through your standing foot into the floor you'll feel that you use your pelvis and diaphram to create the pressure. As you do that you lift your upper body and, as if by magic, your working leg comes free. You can then swing it backwards and forwards by articulating from your pelvis - kind of tilt your pelvis backwards and forwards and feel the leg swing without any input from your muscles. Spooky.

I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are. Getting frustrated because you can't accurately and consistently lead weight changes and the position of your parner's feet after 4 lessons is a bit unfair on yourself. It takes ages to be able to sense where your partner's weight is - I muck it up all the time. (I led a volcada a couple of nights ago and then tried to lead Julie out of it on the wrong foot - she did a very attractive sort of skip as a result, which was better than the alternative of falling on her bum). One tip is to take more time - if you're not sure then stop and do a balanceo to positively put your partner on the foot of your choice. That's one of the great things about AT - you've normally got lots of time and "dramatic pauses" can be added all over the place.

As for looking at your feet: Just don't, OK?! (Easier said than done, I know).

I spent last night (and the night before) working on this dreaded routine. The good news is that I can finally remember the whole damn thing all the way through. I was focussing on the sequences and not the links between them and kept forgetting what came next. Last night we put some time into the links (stuff like side step left, weight change, backward ocho left) and that meant I ended up on the correct foot for the next sequence (back ocho right into sandwich into slow stepover into ganchos x 2 forward ocho right etc.). There are about 6 things that need a load of polishing and we need to start really dancing it rather than stepping through it. We've got 3 hours on Saturday afternoon including an hour with Ruth, then 4 hours on Sunday afternoon which will be great. Next week we're going to try and spend a couple of hours on Monday night, do our own dress rehearsal on Wednesday (and see if I can dance it in a trilby) then there's the venue rehearsal on Thursday and the performance on Friday. I'll be glad when it's over but I have learnt a lot!

Tonight I'm going to Jive and tomorrow night Julie and I are just going to dance Tango - no routine in sight! It'll be great to just forget about everything but the music and the connection and just dance.

**David Bailey** · 23rd-February-2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are.

Actually, me too. I don't expect to progress beyond "beginner" for at least another year or so.

Are we going to have this routine captured on video then?

**JonD** · 23rd-February-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Are we going to have this routine captured on video then?

There's a move afoot to record it for posterity. However, I'm insisting on being the editor. Given the horlicks I was making of one particular figure last night it's quite likely that the whole thing will end up on the cutting room floor. I'm not sure if we'll ever let anyone see it - it depends on how good it is and how shy I'm feeling!

I've already learnt a lot from preparing the routine; we're doing some figures that would be way beyond me in freestyle and it's forcing me to try and learn to be faster and more accurate. Balance is just so critical. I used to think that you could get away with poor balance when you are moving faster but that just isn't the case. Complex sacada into sacada into barida into boleo type stuff demands incredible precision and you can't be precise if you're wobbling. Fortunately it's all choreographed so Julie knows what's coming. I don't have to try and get the leads right and she can spare some time to help keep me from falling over!

CeeCee · 23rd-February-2006, 05:33 PM

the journey continues…

Quote:

originally posted by LMC
Lots and lots of walking tonight.

As mentioned before on numerous posts, this is common and essential. I had to laugh at the end of my class last night when a girl mentioned that she’d attended another venue the previous week. The first ten minutes were spent ‘just walking and it was so boring’. She was singularly unimpressed when I told her about my first AT class which consisted of walking for the entire hour!

Quote:

originally posted by LMC
So I've come away feeling quite positive and very anxious to practise - I'm suddenly feeling the need to get some freestyle - look out guys

Hey, good for you, take yourself off to a milonga and have some fun.

I had a super night at my Tango class in Chiswick Town Hall last night. So much concentration on Tango has left me mourning the loss of spins, turns, dips, drops and lifts. Well last night our group learned a move, which involved a series of underarm turns for the follower, no idea of the name but what fun!

With 3 chaps in our group of 12 all of us took turns to lead and follow. I had great fun leading a chap who seemed to have fun doing underarm turns.

The milonga was a treat as I was fortunate to have a dream dance with a stranger, the music was sublime and he led slow, slower and even slower moves with stationary leans, rotating leans and pauses and it was simply…

Quote:

Originally posted by timbp
It helped that I now felt I had permission to mix up the steps, rather than just using the basic 8 pattern,

Liberating isn’t it?

Quote:

Originally posted by timbp
The teacher put on some music, and danced the pattern we'd just learned (basic 8 including the sandwich) through three times, but adding pauses or extra weight changes, making some steps slow, others fast. The same basic pattern three times, but it looked so different you could think he had never repeated a step.

Were you impressed? I witnessed the same at the class last week when the teachers did just as you described at the end of the class and I left feeling inspired.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yogi Bear
I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are.

Met a lady at a class who told me that she really must have some private lessons soon because to use her words she was “rubbish at Argentine Tango and just not getting it”. How many lessons has she had? This was her second!

Quote:

Originally posted by Yogi Bear
Boleo
Seductive and elegant, Boleos always involve the swivelling action of the hips; and a whiplash effect from one leg - otherwise they look, and feel unfinished. This step is essentially an interrupted Ocho whose energy is released and channelled into a lovely circular or linear movement of the women's leg. With the knees together, and one leg back, the woman swivels, and then returns to the starting position, finishing on the supporting leg. The move should be executed with a whipping action on the working leg. ..

Wow, thanks for this it sounds brilliant, I’m off to practice...

**Kev F** · 23rd-February-2006, 05:53 PM

When learning how to do the close embrace, we've been practicing a lot with BOTH our hands behind our backs, using just our chests as the point of contact, this has showed up many of our flaws (which hopefully we're working to iron out )

For lory, she found out how much she relies on the hand hold to keep her balance. And when walking, our bodies might have felt (and even looked) as though they were moving smoothly (I don't mean in the up and down, bouncy sense) but during each step, we'd have a blip where we moved faster or slower, this shows up terribly when the hands and arms aren't there to act as shock absorbers and we found ourselves having a bit of a bumpy time of it.

We found part of the key, is to keep pressure against each other.
If you stand very close but with no real contact, you bump and collide much more as your bodies work against each other but as soon as you exert a small amount of pressure, it seems to smooth out.

It's also interesting how difficult it is to transition to body leading once a MJ style has been implanted in a dancer. I've been try to avoid the temptation to lead too much with my arms and applying the body leading back through the MJ too, with quite exciting results.

I still haven't got to grips with Pablo de Giorgios theory of leading by intent.

**David Bailey** · 23rd-February-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kev F

When learning how to do the close embrace, we've been practicing a lot with BOTH our hands behind our backs, using just our chests as the point of contact,

Really? Hmmm...

(I'm sorry, the image just flashed into my head

)

**Lynn** · 23rd-February-2006, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Are we going to have this routine captured on video then?

Or we will maybe get to see it at the Southport milonga perhaps?

Re the impatience thing, it probably comes from expected progression based on previous dance experience in other styles. A dancer who had attended the first class at Scarborough said it was 'like watching paint dry' (and I thought the classes covered quite a lot!) and I'm wondering if the teaching of footwork patterns rather than focus on leading in our local class is as a result of people feeling impatient?

I'm happy to get up and just do very basic steps at the moment, but work on the lead and follow, connection and invitation. We've got years to learn it...

timbp · 23rd-February-2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonD

I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are. Getting frustrated because you can't accurately and consistently lead weight changes and the position of your parner's feet after 4 lessons is a bit unfair on yourself.

I never expected to be perfect after only 4 weeks. After all, it is an 8 week course. Even with previous dance experience I wouldn't expect to get close to perfect until near the end of week 7.

Frustration was beca

23rd-February-2006, 08:07 AM	#248 (permalink)
timbp Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 511 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 324	Re: Learning Tango Lesson 4 In this class, the teacher started to emphasise the improvisational nature of the dance. We started, as always, with walking, forwards then back. Then standing on one foot, moving the free leg. The idea is to isolate the movement to that free leg. The rest of the body should not move, except a slight rotation of the torso -- when left leg is forward, right shoulder should be slightly forward. But your axis should not move, however you are moving your leg. We repeated this with the other leg free. Next, we stood feet together, weight on the right foot, and did a quarter turn to the right. Shoulders turn first, and the turn is tranmitted down until the feet move. Four quarter turns to get back to the start, then change weight to the left foot, and four quarter turns to the left. Then weight on left foot, four quarter turns to the right; weight on right foot, four quarter turns to the left. We then partnered up, he put some music on and told us to move around the floor in the line of dance, just doing forward steps and open/side steps. My leading was atrocious. I was ok walking forward, but couldn't seem to manage a change to an open step, or from open to forward. And I was continually trying to my partner on the wrong. I did improve as the exercise went on, and the female teacher explained a bit of what I was doing wrong. BUt I was still so often not recognising which foot the girl was on, or not leading her to change her weight. We then learned the sandwich. (The teacher does mention the non-english names, but I can't seem to catch them. Checking wikipedia, I think this the mordida.) Then we practised the pattern (8 basic with the sandwich included). And then he told us to remember to practise our other steps (forward and reverse ochos), and he started to emphasise improvisation -- practise the steps, but dance them as you feel appropriate to the music, space, etc. I was still wrong-footing my partner. I was also watching my feet almost all the time. I would be watching my feet while thinking "don't watch your feet". BUt I managed to lead the various steps reasonably well. It helped that I now felt I had permission to mix up the steps, rather than just using the basic 8 pattern, so I could try to concentrate on where I wanted to move and how to lead there, rather than trying to remember what was the next step I was meant to do. I even managed to move in time to the music some of the time, and even some small interpretation (in terms of pauses or varying the speed of steps). At the end of the class, someone asked a question. I didn't actually catch what he said, but it was related to improvisation and remembering steps/patterns. The teacher put on some music, and danced the pattern we'd just learned (basic 8 including the sandwich) through three times, but adding pauses or extra weight changes, making some steps slow, others fast. The same basic pattern three times, but it looked so different you could think he had never repeated a step.

23rd-February-2006, 11:52 AM	#249 (permalink)
Graham W Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bristol Posts: 456 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 37	Re: Learning Tango No time to read all thread yet,(prompted to by Philsmove) but just to throw my hat in the ring - been learning ArgTango since Oct 05 & really enjoying the experience - lots of diff teachers & a diff vibe altogether from jive.. G

23rd-February-2006, 01:06 PM	#251 (permalink)
stefanofava Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3 Status: No Status Rep Power: 0 Rep.: 12	Re: Learning Tango Hi all, it seems that passion for Argentine Tango is growing fast amonst Ceroc people. I hope you don't mind if I remind you of our Argentine Tango Workshops in Aberdeen (Station Hotel) this Sat afternoon 25th February (followed by a Milonga in the evening). The full programme is on our web site under this page: http://www.tangoinaction.com/services.htm Alexandra and I hope to meet you soon Happy dancing...!! Stefano and Alexandra Tango in Action

23rd-February-2006, 01:13 PM	#253 (permalink)
JonD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 537 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 688	Re: Learning Tango Tim, that sounds like a really good class! I had a terrible time "freeing" my working leg. I couldn't understand how, without tilting your hips, you could have two legs the same length, stand on one and have the other one so it could swing free. But, if you really focus on pushing down through your standing foot into the floor you'll feel that you use your pelvis and diaphram to create the pressure. As you do that you lift your upper body and, as if by magic, your working leg comes free. You can then swing it backwards and forwards by articulating from your pelvis - kind of tilt your pelvis backwards and forwards and feel the leg swing without any input from your muscles. Spooky. I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are. Getting frustrated because you can't accurately and consistently lead weight changes and the position of your parner's feet after 4 lessons is a bit unfair on yourself. It takes ages to be able to sense where your partner's weight is - I muck it up all the time. (I led a volcada a couple of nights ago and then tried to lead Julie out of it on the wrong foot - she did a very attractive sort of skip as a result, which was better than the alternative of falling on her bum). One tip is to take more time - if you're not sure then stop and do a balanceo to positively put your partner on the foot of your choice. That's one of the great things about AT - you've normally got lots of time and "dramatic pauses" can be added all over the place. As for looking at your feet: Just don't, OK?! (Easier said than done, I know). I spent last night (and the night before) working on this dreaded routine. The good news is that I can finally remember the whole damn thing all the way through. I was focussing on the sequences and not the links between them and kept forgetting what came next. Last night we put some time into the links (stuff like side step left, weight change, backward ocho left) and that meant I ended up on the correct foot for the next sequence (back ocho right into sandwich into slow stepover into ganchos x 2 forward ocho right etc.). There are about 6 things that need a load of polishing and we need to start really dancing it rather than stepping through it. We've got 3 hours on Saturday afternoon including an hour with Ruth, then 4 hours on Sunday afternoon which will be great. Next week we're going to try and spend a couple of hours on Monday night, do our own dress rehearsal on Wednesday (and see if I can dance it in a trilby) then there's the venue rehearsal on Thursday and the performance on Friday. I'll be glad when it's over but I have learnt a lot! Tonight I'm going to Jive and tomorrow night Julie and I are just going to dance Tango - no routine in sight! It'll be great to just forget about everything but the music and the connection and just dance.

23rd-February-2006, 05:53 PM	#257 (permalink)
Kev F Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Rickmansworth, Herts Posts: 301 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 571	Re: Learning Tango When learning how to do the close embrace, we've been practicing a lot with BOTH our hands behind our backs, using just our chests as the point of contact, this has showed up many of our flaws (which hopefully we're working to iron out ) For lory, she found out how much she relies on the hand hold to keep her balance. And when walking, our bodies might have felt (and even looked) as though they were moving smoothly (I don't mean in the up and down, bouncy sense) but during each step, we'd have a blip where we moved faster or slower, this shows up terribly when the hands and arms aren't there to act as shock absorbers and we found ourselves having a bit of a bumpy time of it. We found part of the key, is to keep pressure against each other. If you stand very close but with no real contact, you bump and collide much more as your bodies work against each other but as soon as you exert a small amount of pressure, it seems to smooth out. It's also interesting how difficult it is to transition to body leading once a MJ style has been implanted in a dancer. I've been try to avoid the temptation to lead too much with my arms and applying the body leading back through the MJ too, with quite exciting results. I still haven't got to grips with Pablo de Giorgios theory of leading by intent.