Learning Tango

[Alice]

Originally Posted by timbp

I never expected to be perfect after only 4 weeks. After all, it is an 8 week course. Even with previous dance experience I wouldn't expect to get close to perfect until near the end of week 7.

Frustration was because I had done better lat eading weight changes the week before. Frustration was because I would fail to lead a weight change, realise what I had done, then do exactly the same thing 3 steps later.

The real problem is I'm doing too much at the moment, and getting tired. But what do I give up: tango? ceroc? west coast swing?

Oh the choices we face....

[JonD]

Originally Posted by timbp

Frustration was because I had done better at leading weight changes the week before. Frustration was because I would fail to lead a weight change, realise what I had done, then do exactly the same thing 3 steps later.

That sounds horribly familiar!

But what do I give up: tango? ceroc? west coast swing?

We just need more nights in the week! I'd love to learn WCS - it's a fab dance and I love the connection and "tension" in it. Nelson is teaching it on Mondays but I know it would just be too much so haven't done any of the classes. I fear I'd be back on a "dance treadmill" if I did and end up getting jaded. I took a three month break from all dancing a couple of years ago because it all started to feel too much - almost every evening and weekend was booked up months in advance and I wasn't taking any "down time". The break did me good and helped me fit dancing into my life a bit more sensibly.

Originally Posted by Lynn

We've got years to learn it...

It's wonderful isn't it - I can see years of delight learning AT, WCS, MJ and maybe other dances I've yet to discover. Life is good; dance and dancers play a huge part in making it so.

[David Bailey]

OK, I'm deserting from the "North London" thread, as this seems to be the place to report one's experiences.

Incredibly frustrating class last night - I came home and just wanted to bang my head against a wall for an hour.

Kicca returned after her trip ( ), but she and Keiji took a while to get back into rhythm and connection ( ), so a lot of time was wasted trying to work out where they were, and what they were supposed to be doing.

I have to say, based on the sessions so far, I'm not getting as much from the intermediate classes as I did from the beginner classes - there's not so much of a clear structure involved, and it seems much more ad-hoc. Possibly this is because Kicca's been off for a month, but some planning wouldn't have gone amiss.

In addition, I got stuck with a partner (for about an hour) with whom I could find no connection. I'm sorry, I'm a bad person and will rot in hell for saying this, but she just would not follow my lead - she was racing off to do her own thing, all the time, ignoring my attempts to set the pace and actually do the lead.

(Having said that, I probably do need to speed my lead up - I'm focussing on getting everything done right rather than getting everything done at the right speed)

I know, I'm the leader, I should control things - but in AT, it's all invitational, AFAIK there's no easy way to "increase the strength" of the lead - if the follower ignores it, you pretty much have to follow her wherever she goes. And I've no problem with learning with someone less experienced (amazingly enough, there are people less experienced than me), but I don't want to have to fight for control for a solid hour - we should have been swapped around.

In addition, we covered baridas (sweeps), and I had incredible problems doing these from a giro - my weight was always on the wrong foot, I just couldn't get it to work despite a 5-minute session sweating in front of both teachers trying to understand it. Finally, I just decided to do it at speed - and it worked! Yay! More to the point, at speed I could "enforce" a lead with a barida, which cheered me up a little.

So, this week's moral is to speed things up.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

(Having said that, I probably do need to speed my lead up - I'm focussing on getting everything done right rather than getting everything done at the right speed)

Note to self: must dance with DJ ASAP.

Because I frequently feel like I'm being rushed, I strongly suspect my following is slow for the same reason - I really want to get it right.

Form an orderly queue behind me

[Lory]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So, this week's moral is to speed things up.

Nope, sorry, I don't agree!

Its much better to do it properly, particularly paying maximum attention to where the axis is, than to speed up and get it wrong!

When I danced with Pablo, it was amazingly slow but VERRRRRY smooth. He waited until I was balanced (on my own axis) and sometimes he sort of pivoted me back and forth very slightly, seemingly to test that I was centred before he lead the next move?

I felt so light when he was changing my direction, he made it feel like no effort whatsoever.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lory

Nope, sorry, I don't agree!

Its much better to do it properly, particularly paying maximum attention to where the axis is, than to speed up and get it wrong!

I totally agree in general - but when you're dancing with a partner on speed (!), you have to put up with it. And there are some benefits to trying to speed it up, it does make you think at "dance speed"; if you can do it right at that speed, you're doing well. Also, some of the flowing movements like baridas seemed to me to flow more naturally when done faster - you almost didn't have time to think about it, the movements became natural.

Having said all that, I know what you're saying, and proper technique and positioning are very important - also, speed encourages sloppy technique. But speed is important too - and for me, when dancing with someone who's rushing through things*, if I focus on getting some value out of it, at least that's something positive I can get from the session.

* Believe me when I say, I repeatedly asked her to slow it down, to get the technique right, but she wasn't listening to me

As an addendum - is there any way to enforce a particular speed as a leader? I couldn't work out a way last night...

[Lory]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

* Believe me when I say, I repeatedly asked her to slow it down, to get the technique right, but she wasn't listening to me

As an addendum - is there any way to enforce a particular speed as a leader? I couldn't work out a way last night...

In this case, I feel very sorry for you because my teacher has drilled it into me, that it's my job as a follower to do absolutely nothing but wait, until i'm lead to do something!

I found it hard but it IS getting easier!

And apparently one of the best compliments a man will pay to a woman in Tango is "she/you waited well"

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lory

In this case, I feel very sorry for you because my teacher has drilled it into me, that it's my job as a follower to do absolutely nothing but wait, until i'm lead to do something!

So, in other words, you're a passive follower?

Originally Posted by Lory

And apparently one of the best compliments a man will pay to a woman in Tango is "she/you waited well"

I don't believe I'll be saying that particular phrase any time soon to that person

Kicca and Keiji have great strengths as teachers - they focus on technique, they demonstrate the spirit of the dance, they have so far completely ignored the dodgy Basic 8, they have patience and humour, and so on. But they haven't really emphasised the sequence (for the follower) of: wait for offer - move - wait for leader to follow you.

Oh well, all teachers are different - sometimes I think there are more AT teachers in London than AT dancers

[Lory]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So, in other words, you're a passive follower?

I'm trying as best as I can to be

Just in Tango that is

[LMC]

Hamza actually told me off for being too passive on my second lesson - but I think he actually meant that I was being too slow to follow

I guess it varies from teacher to teacher - Hamza has said a couple of times that a more experienced follower can "surprise" their partner (by which I guess he means hijack... ) - but I don't think anyone leading me has anything to worry about on that front until about 16 April 2237.

[philsmove]

The active / passive thing came up at last night s lesson


Quote forum the teacher

Tango is like a conversation between two people

Some people like to talk a lot

Some people like to listen a lot

You must listen for when other person has finished talking (leading)

It’s then your turn to talk (lead)

if the other the other person does not say anything, you take the lead

You listen to the other person

[JonD]

Originally Posted by DJ

is there any way to enforce a particular speed as a leader?

I haven't found one but it would certainly be useful. Julie was doing this when we were practicing the other day - I'd forget the next bit of the routine and she'd carry on dancing in the hope that I'd catch up. It felt horrible - like I'd been left standing and useless. In freestyle I just stop and wait and hope that the follower "comes back to me". The most peculiar thing is when someone goes into "permanent ocho" mode.

I have to say that I prefer the slow method of learning - I'm finding my efforts to do things fast really, really difficult at the moment. It's just so hard to be really accurate and get the weight changes right. We're doing a barida where I'm picking up Julie's foot just as it starts moving and as I finish a 180' pivot - I have this terrible fear that I'm going to kick her foot really hard (I haven't done so yet). Mind you, if I don't try to speed things up then I'll probably never force myself to learn to cope with the increased speed and the movement just doesn't work in slow motion. David is probably right - damn him!

[Lynn]

Re the waiting thing -

Originally Posted by Me, after Scarborough

One thing that really crystallised for me this weekend was the waiting on one foot for the next lead in whatever direction. I think I did know this before but its becoming instinctive in my tango dancing now. For me it really reinforces the connection in tango.

I found waiting, while the lead perhaps gently pivoted me a little, helped the connection. So aside from the 'dancing sin' of anticipation, not waiting for the lead would surely ruin the connection as well.

I like the 'waiting for the lead' bit, it almost seems to let the connection 'build up' in that pause so when you do move off, you move almost together.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JonD

The most peculiar thing is when someone goes into "permanent ocho" mode.

That's exactly what happened last night! Were you watching or what?

I felt like I could just let go and she'd carry on going through ultra-fast ochos for some reason

Originally Posted by JonD

Mind you, if I don't try to speed things up then I'll probably never force myself to learn to cope with the increased speed and the movement just doesn't work in slow motion. David is probably right - damn him!

Well, to be fair to Keiji and Kicca, that's what they were saying - and of course, you do eventually have to speed it up, so there's an argument for saying that you should learn it at speed and get it right. Because you'll need to do both in a social setting, at least if you want to keep in time to the music, and so that recreates what the requirements are for the move.

The danger is, of course, that you get more sloppy when you're doing it fast. Especially for me, because I'm naturally sloppy anyhow, being brought up in the mean streets of MJ.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by DJ

Incredibly frustrating class last night - I came home and just wanted to bang my head against a wall for an hour.

Aww, poor you, allow noone to make you feel sad about your Tango.

Originally posted by DJ
Having said that, I probably do need to speed my lead up

Why? Who says so? You’re the leader, you set the pace

Originally posted by DJ
Believe me when I say, I repeatedly asked her to slow it down, to get the technique right, but she wasn't listening to me

Perhaps she doesn't listen to or follow anyone, ever met a follower like her in MJ?

Originally posted by Lynn
I found waiting, while the lead perhaps gently pivoted me a little, helped the connection.

I agree with you Lynn.

Originally posted by Lory
that it's my job as a follower to do absolutely nothing but wait, until i'm lead to do something!

I’ve heard the same too.
So DJ was right and she (Ms Speedy) was wrong.
I wonder why she was in such a hurry anyway.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by CeeCee

Aww, poor you, allow noone to make you feel sad about your Tango.

I know how he felt, I was feeling a bit like that myself last week. I'm hoping for less frustration tonight.

Originally Posted by CeeCee

So DJ was right and she (Ms Speedy) was wrong.

Course he was, he usually is!