Learning Tango

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Lynn

The problem seems to be that there are various terms - Neo Tango (not sure if I've come across that one before), Nuevo Tango, Nu Tango - and sometimes they seem to be applied to the music, sometimes the dancing. So its easy to get confused and seems there maybe isn't always consistent application of the terms.

Originally Posted by philsmove

#
And that another problem with Tango
Not only have you got to learn a whole new dance
You have learn a new language as well

PS if you come to a certaine class in Bristol, just dont mention Nuevo Tango,

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by philsmove

<< snip >>
PS if you come to a certaine class in Bristol, just dont mention Nuevo Tango,

Come on Phil, you gotta tell us what happens.
Nuevo Tango
Nuevo Tango
Nuevo Tango

Look into my eyes. You know you want to. You need to tell us. Look into my eyes.

CRL

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
The problem seems to be that there are various terms - Neo Tango (not sure if I've come across that one before), Nuevo Tango, Nu Tango - and sometimes they seem to be applied to the music, sometimes the dancing.

I guess Phil’s teachers in Bristol wont be interested in the Nuevotango Festival II in Seattle in May www.nuevotango.com featuring the music of Narcotango which worries me a little, (just a little).

After our other hybrids, estango, mango, jango and swango, if Narcotango has anything at all to do with narcolepsy then our passion is doomed.

[Clive Long]

I think I will camp out in this Tango thread for a little while as in my book Chiswick is West London, not North London.

Dabbling with the dark side
********************************

Yes, I sampled the Federico experience tonight.

I arrived in a fluster thinking I was late (this is a BIG issue for me at the moment - ask CeeCee - well best if you don't as she is getting a bit irritated with the subject).

I was greeted at the door by a young lady with dark flowing "Tango" hair. Rather than asking me for my money she asked if I had the correct shoes. I said I had shoes that I danced in. I was told that wasn't what she asked, she wanted to know if I had dance shoes. I said I didn't realise I had come to a lesson in English Grammar and should I leave now? Icy pause. I decided to show her my shoes. They passed. (The shoes come up again later).

I chatted to a couple of people then when CeeCee arrived we had a quick shuffle around the floor before the action began.

Federico is a (slightly) camp bully. I'd say he gets you moving rather than concentrating on balance, walking, turns etc. I can see the appeal in his approach. He says you can't learn Tango without suede under your feet (the shoes again, the shoes). We started with some nice walking exercises (I was starting to feel on home territory now).

The group was separated into beginners and intermediates - in fact those with suede soles and those without, the Big F declared (shoes, shoes, shoes).

I put myself in the beginners as you never know what will be thrown at you. I was actually happy about this as we did some Giro thingy and the pace (slow, dead stop) was right for me. Caro (door woman) was actually quite an effective and supportive teacher of us beginners. After about 3 minutes of the class some woman stomped over to the side picked up her coat and stormed out. Caro explained she had the wrong shoes (this is getting a bit obsessive methinks). Federico carried on as if nothing had happened, or at least it was a regular occurrence and some "casualties" were to be expected in his lesson.

No more shoe-related incidents for the rest of the evening except we were lectured about them during "notices". Strangely .... Federico had a wide selection of shoes for sale .... (no , no I'm not that unkind ...). One point the great man made was he is holding a dance for "you" (that's us) the people who can't dance. What I finally understood is that is the place you go and don't make excuses - just try what you can. That's what I'm needing right now.

Now, I really enjoyed the class and the dance afterwards was a great opportunity to practise. I had never noticed before how nice a venue Chiswick Town Hall is.

I will go when I can but Dome on Wednesdays is a milonga and Tufnell park is miles easier for me to get to at the moment. You can never have too much Tango.

[timbp]

Lesson 5

I'm sure I mentioned last week that I was doing too much. Well, I did try to cut down. I didn't dance on Friday or Monday. But as I arrived at this class my right foot was hurting enough to affect my normal walk, let alone a tango walk.

We started as always with walking down the the room, then backwards up the room a couple of times.

We then got another little talk about the improvisational nature of the dance. The teacher mentioned that when he learned, there were very few tango dancers in Sydney, so there was plenty of room on the dance floor, and they all thought they were so good because of all the fancy patterns they could dance. Then he went to Buenos Aires, and he couldn't dance, because there was no room on the floor to do the patterns he knew and he didn't know how to improvise. He said he teaches the patterns as a tool for learning different types of steps, but we should not expect to dance them as they are.
I know some contributors to this thread are uncomfortable with the idea of the basic 8 or any patterns, but I think this teacher understands the traps. The entire structure of the course impresses me more every week.

He quickly demonstrated the things we've done so far (as a reminder), and put some music on for us to practise. Once again I was partnerless, and danced with the female teacher (sharing her with the other single guy). It seems I am not moving my centre, my "energy", when I try to take a small step (big steps are fine). My task now is to vary my step size, and ensure that every step is definite and clear to my partner, whether it's a step of 2 inches or of 2 feet.

We then started on this weeks (and next weeks) pattern -- the wheel. The teachers demonstrated first. It's simple enough: guy in the middle, as the axis, leads the girl in a circle around him. After the demonstration, the man next to me said, "I've done this course three times, and I'm just starting to understand how to do this pattern."

In this pattern, the woman is doing forward ocho, open step, backwards ocho, open step, forwards ocho, to travel around the man. The man is starting with weight on the left, transferring weight to the right while turning the upper body to the right, and eventually pivoting about 180 degrees on the right foot, while keeping perfectly on balance, with axis remaining on a single point. Unfortunately, that pivot on the right foot was impossible with my sore foot. Fortunately, I could pretend my lack of balance was due to the pain in my foot, not my incompetence.

What interested me most was when the teacher said (speaking to us guys alone while the girls were off learning their thing) that after the inital ocho we can expect the girls to pivot and prepare for an ocho back the other way, as that's the pattern they know from previous weeks. He said, "This is where you start to learn to lead. There are now two things you can do from a forward ocho, and you've got to make it clear whether you want another ocho, or an open step [for the wheel]."
As I said above, he understands the traps of teaching patterns, and I think this statement shows he actually uses those traps -- get the girls to learn to step through a pattern, then teach the guys to stop the girls doing that.

My feet are feeling better today. I can walk normally, but I'm still aware of some soreness. I'm trying to convince myself not to go dancing tonight, but I keep thinking that as I'm staying home friday night (and maybe Saturday as well), why not go to class tonight.

[Lory]

Originally Posted by timbp

We then started on this weeks (and next weeks) pattern -- the wheel. The teachers demonstrated first. It's simple enough: guy in the middle, as the axis, leads the girl in a circle around him. ~snip~
In this pattern, the woman is doing forward ocho, open step, backwards ocho, open step, forwards ocho, to travel around the man.

It sounds like a Giro to me?

What interested me most was when the teacher said that after the inital ocho we can expect the girls to pivot and prepare for an ocho back the other way,

Our teacher taught us right from the very beginning that the 'default' setting should be to start to go into a side step (as in the giro) after each ocho and never to assume that I'll be doing another ocho. She said its really hard for the man to lead you out of an ocho motion but it's easy to lead you into an ocho if he wants to, when you about to do a side step. (I hope that makes sense?? )

As DJ said, when he had trouble with his partner last week, who was stuck in permanent ocho mode!

[timbp]

Originally Posted by Lory

It sounds like a Giro to me?

Probably. My teacher uses English names almost exclusively. You have to be very quick to catch a non-English move name from him.
I had always thought a giro was both partners revolving around a common axis. So what's that called?

Our teacher taught us right from the very beginning that the 'default' setting should be to start to go into a side step (as in the giro) after each ocho and never to assume that I'll be doing another ocho.

And I would say the "default" ought to be to remain with weight perfectly balanced over one foot, ready to move wherever the man chooses to lead you.

But if, as you say, it is harder to lead a woman into an open step than another ocho, then my teacher's approach of requiring the men to lead the open step when the women might expect an ocho should develop clearer leads (or it could develop more forceful "do as I tell you, woman" leads).

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

{ snip shoe review }

So that's why CeeCee went there... Lynn, I think you've found your spiritual home

Originally Posted by Clive Long

I will go when I can but Dome on Wednesdays is a milonga and Tufnell park is miles easier for me to get to at the moment. You can never have too much Tango.

Hmmm, maybe we should organise a trip to the Dome on a Weds night?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lory

It sounds like a Giro to me?

Me too - although the "guy is the axis" thing is not exactly the way I think of it, more like two people revolving around the common axis. The guy has to turn (or at least move) to lead the giro - something I keep forgetting

Whilst it's hard work to learn all these Spanish names for moves, at least they have the advantage of consistency - everyone knows what an ocho is, what a giro is, and so on. Whereas making up names means that if / when you switch teacher, you'll have to relearn the names anyway at that point.

(Tim, I assumed you turned when leading this wheel move?)

Originally Posted by Lory

Our teacher taught us right from the very beginning that the 'default' setting should be to start to go into a side step (as in the giro) after each ocho and never to assume that I'll be doing another ocho. She said its really hard for the man to lead you out of an ocho motion but it's easy to lead you into an ocho if he wants to, when you about to do a side step. (I hope that makes sense?? )

Interesting... I totally agree that the difference between another ocho and a sidestep is crucial, and that the follower should absolutely not auto-ocho ( grrr... flashback... grrrr... ), it's difficult enough to lead a giro properly as it is.

And possibly anticipating a sidestep may be good practice, as it ensures the leader specifically has to lead an ocho - and I'd much rather have a follower anticipate a sidestep than an ocho. However, I also agree with Tim - surely anticipating anything is bad?

[timbp]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

(Tim, I assumed you turned when leading this wheel move?)

Yes. I did a full 360 degree turn. But my centre was the axis about which both I and the lady turned.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by timbp

Yes. I did a full 360 degree turn. But my centre was the axis about which both I and the lady turned.

That may well be the proper way to describe what happens, I'm not sure... It definitely sounds like a giro though - and there are lots of giro variations I believe.

JonD? Help...

[JonD]

Tim, I like your teacher! I totally agree with him about figures - they are tools to teach the elements and techniques of the dance. Without them it'd be horribly difficult to learn to pivot, to step and to lead but you should never assume that you'll dance them "as given". Ruth taught us very, very few figures in the first year or so. I was really frustrated for ages whenever I tried to freestyle as I felt I had no "words" to express myself and that my dancing was boring. It was only when I started to have the confidence to combine different elements that I started to feel that I could flow in the dance. Now I've been taught tons and tons of figures but I can't do many of them! They all need work after the lesson to perfect the techniques, improve balance and accuracy etc. but we only seem to work on a few - fortunately Julie takes comprehensive notes! I guess that eventually my technique will improve to the point where I can "get" a move in a class and do it afterwards without further study - roll on that glorious day (which will probably occur in about 20 years).

Giro it is - or a molinete. Giro just means a "revolution" - the rev counter in my Alfa is labelled "Giri". A molinete is where the guy turns about his axis so I guess it's both! Whenever anyone mentions a giro I think of the movement Tim describes as a "wheel" and I refer to "giro footwork" when I mean forward ocho, side, backward ocho, side. I guess that any turning movement can be referred to as a giro. Did your followers manage to stay on the circumference of the circle or did they push you off balance as they went round you? Julie has a habit of "cutting the corner" on her side steps (when I do a calesita - all same but with the lady in the middle - I'm perfectly on the circumference of the circle all the time without fail and any wobbling is nothing to do with me, honest).

If you want to make it more difficult, lead the lady to the point where she is about to start her backward ocho - as she pivots into it the guy pivots so that you are right hip to right hip assuming you are turning anti-clockwise. Then the guy draws a semi-circle on the floor with the toe of his left foot while pivoting to his left on his right foot as the lady takes her backward and side steps. There you are: giro with lapis (the pencil)! Julie put two slow, synchopated ones in her choreography for this routine we're doing tomorrow - she's got a mean streak!

Ah, so the charming Romanian also sells shoes. I have a feeling that he turned up at the Tango Mango last Saturday - not to sell shoes but to dance. I wasn't there but I'll ask Ruth to confirm. By the way, this Gringo got the impression that leather soles were preferred in Buenos Aires (although I personally prefer suede).

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

Lots of shoe stuff...

Now I love dance shoes, and love showing them to new dancers if asked (as I frequently am), explain why I'm wearing them etc, but I would never act in a way that made anyone feel bad for not wearing 'proper' dance shoes. No point in making Tango accessible with a teaching style then creating barriers for people over footwear. (Though actually having suitable shoes available for sale sounds like a good idea.)

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So that's why CeeCee went there... Lynn, I think you've found your spiritual home

CeeCee and I have already had lengthy shoe related discussions, complete with links and pics.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

A molinete is where the guy turns about his axis so I guess it's both!

Oh, that sounds a bit like the word for 'windmill' - la molina, I think. (A friend was going to teach me Spanish years ago, we went to the language labs at the local uni but she noticed a nice Spanish guy, who she met again the following week eventually married. Lovely story but I never got round to the Spanish lessons.)

[philsmove]

A quick up date from Bristol

At a few of the classes recently, there has been men over
So the men have taken it in turns, to try and learn to follow
One really learns the importance of a positive lead
If the lead hesitates, one naturally tried to predict what they are going to do next; needless to say one always predicts wrong
On Wednesday evenings the teacher is CESAR VELASQUEZ
He is very good and I think may also teach in London
Tango West have an absolute beginners class this coming Sunday

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by philsmove

A quick up date from Bristol

At a few of the classes recently, there has been men over

*Goes off to check cheap flights to Bristol*

[Lory]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I also agree with Tim - surely anticipating anything is bad?

I totally agree too

but there comes a point where we have to introduce some fluidity (and speed David ) and I suppose this is where we don't want to fall into the trap of 'the auto ocho' and the only way out of that seems to be, to start to go into a side step and see if your partner changes your direction?

As I said, I'm NO expert, we're all in this together!

[CeeCee]

the Federico experience